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Mobile Loans Ponzi
hardwood
#31 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 2:11:35 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Alot of middle class guys are also using the mobile loans. Eg mwisho ya mwezi when your pay hasn't "arrived" and you need to fuel your car, or pay stima, water bills, DSTV, 3rd party car insurance, topping up rent etc people use the facility. Your mum in the village could urgently need some 5k to buy some medicine, and you are broke, then you can get the mobile loan and help.

Also you could need some urgent cash and the accountant in the office tells you that your salary or payment voucher will be ready at the end of the day so you just take the same day mobile loan and repay before midnight.

So it's not only mama mbogas and hawkers taking these loans. In the old days when someone was in a fix they would ask their friends (basically beg them) to lend them money but nowadays you just get the mobile loan. If you can get eg 10k "from your phone", why bother your friends? NB in old days your friend would still need some 2 beers for shukrani for the soft loan which is basically the equivalent of the interest you now pay for the mobile loan.

These mobile loans have afforded "credit card equivalent facilities" to the masses where you spend now and pay later. Sometimes you pay zero interest when you pay during the interest free repayment period.
hardwood
#32 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 2:48:59 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
mulla wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
Banks have gone as far as offering day loans interest free on mobile. What other use can this money be put to except gambling? Who borrows money in the morning with confidence of repaying by midnight other than a gambler?

What does this portend for out banks? What percent of money is lent to mobile fellas? If an event was to happen that rendered Wanjikus unable to pay, would we see banks collapsing ala mortgage crisis? What kind of event would this be?

Its very scary. I think banks are getting careless. Wanjiku is doing a ponzi scheme via mobile lending from different offerers, at some point the cookie will crumble!


The banks know most clients will not pay the borrowed amount by midnight and this loan rolls over to pay in a month + interest. This is just a marketing ploy to advertise their loan products. Most borrowers will fear being listed on CRB so will make an honest effort to repay within the month.
Banks/Mobile lenders are raking in crazy interest from these loans, example, KCB on a 20k monthly loan 4.25%(51%p/a)


My credit card charges 3.99% per month which is about 50% per annum for outstanding amounts. There is also a 10% upfront charge if I withdraw cash at the ATM using the card. Also an extra 10% penalty for any late repayments. The card is worse than those mobile loans. And I know many wazuans have credit cards. You'd rather get the 20k mobile loan than a cash advance using your credit card.
winmak
#33 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 2:50:03 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 539
Location: Nakuru
Good people,

This sounds like a good topic for a Masters thesis. My background is in health so I am not well versed with how studies in commerce/economics are conducted. I am suggesting it to a friend who is doing an MBA. I am requesting suggestions on how such a study would be conducted with the key question being "What is the macroeconomic effect on phone microloans?" or "Do phone loans improve financial status of those who take them?" I am looking for how such a study would be structured, the methodology, any prior studies and what they showed.

Thanks in advance - wmakanga at yahoo dot com
For investors as a whole, returns decrease as motion increases ~ WB
MaichBlack
#34 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 3:15:57 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,843
tom_boy wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



I am sure you know what I mean when I say mobile loans are a form of ponzi. Stop detracting from the main point. The main point is that in my view,

1. mobile loans are not sustainable in the long term ( just like ponzi scheme)

2. They are not beneficial to the majority ( just like a ponzi).

3. They are not capable of helping the majority get out of poverty. Indeed, they may perpetuate poverty by encouraging borrowing at exorbitant rates.

4. Banks may be lending too much to mobile loan customer at expense of sme customer. This hurts the economy.

5. Too much lending to an asset segment that even cbk has not recognised as an asset segment (mobile loans), a segment that is high risk and yet the full high risk is not captured in provisioning.

6. No data on where the mobile money loans are going. Just alot of yada yada about mama mboga and hawkers. ( just like in a ponzi where one never really knows where the money is being invested).


I could go on and on....

1) There is a segment of society that finds mobile loans very beneficial to them. If you are not one of them, leave the loans alone. You don't have to eat everything on the Menu!

2) There are people who borrow and waste money. Even the "normal" loans from banks. Middle class has a habit of borrowing for consumption - Holidays, gadgets, weddings, holidays etc. Anyone with basic economics knowledge will tell you that is a very stupid thing to do! It is not the bank's responsibility to follow you and monitor how you spend money (unless it is something like asset financing etc). The bank's main concern and rightly so, is you ability to repay.

3) A major blanket default will never happen unless there is a major catastrophic event like a breakout of a major and sudden war. The lenders don't just wake up one morning and lend you 70k!!! They start small. say 1k and 2k and that grows depending on your history. The margins are huge enough to cover individual defaults, the risks are spread and the tenure of the loans are short. I don't see what event would lead Kenyans to default enmass on small to average amount loans. May be you should give us one or two examples of REALISTIC events that might lead to sudden (30 day window) MASS defaults!!

4) Banks are businesses. Not charities or the government. They deploy their money in the most profitable manner like all the other businesses or individuals. As bad as it might sound, it is not their responsibility to ensure that SMEs have access to credit (at an expense to their bottom line). That is why the government comes up with things like the youth fund, women fund etc. And it is not just banks.

5) To small businesses that need quick money to be repaid in days or few weeks, the interest is not exorbitant (many people have explained this here). When you compound, of course it is huge but the small business owners don't compound either theoretically (like you are doing) or practically. They pay within the 30 days in which period they will have made much money.

6) Finally, these products have a target market. I for one wouldn't go for mobile loans coz whatever I am doing would require a cycle of number of months (meaning the compounding would be real) and would need a larger amount than I would get via mobile loans. But if I was in a short cycle business like mama mboga, hawker, kiosk, restaurant, broker, most types of traders (getting potatoes from Kinangop, fish from Kisumu, selling uniform - I would need more stock in January compared to most months etc.) I would definitely take advantage of the facility if and when need be!



Too much theory. Zero data to support it.

Time will tell what the true position is.

You evidently have never heard of black swan events and risk management

You are the one with theories my friend. The rest of us are telling you what is actually happening. But evidently you were not interested in an intellectual discourse but only wanted to preach. Preach on...
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
MaichBlack
#35 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 3:36:06 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,843
hardwood wrote:
Alot of middle class guys are also using the mobile loans. Eg mwisho ya mwezi when your pay hasn't "arrived" and you need to fuel your car, or pay stima, water bills, DSTV, 3rd party car insurance, topping up rent etc people use the facility. Your mum in the village could urgently need some 5k to buy some medicine, and you are broke, then you can get the mobile loan and help.

Also you could need some urgent cash and the accountant in the office tells you that your salary or payment voucher will be ready at the end of the day so you just take the same day mobile loan and repay before midnight.

So it's not only mama mbogas and hawkers taking these loans. In the old days when someone was in a fix they would ask their friends (basically beg them) to lend them money but nowadays you just get the mobile loan. If you can get eg 10k "from your phone", why bother your friends? NB in old days your friend would still need some 2 beers for shukrani for the soft loan which is basically the equivalent of the interest you now pay for the mobile loan.

These mobile loans have afforded "credit card equivalent facilities" to the masses where you spend now and pay later. Sometimes you pay zero interest when you pay during the interest free repayment period.

Very true! And some people would be willing to pay the interest to save face or keep their stuff to themselves. Like a fellow whose gas runs out and decides to borrow through his phone 2k knowing very well he 200/= or 300/= on top but to them it is worth it as opposed to begging a friend for the money (who might still need the 2 beers). And in some cases friends might not be in a position or willing to lend. The fellow might have to air his business to like 5 or more friends.

I don't know why some people think all Kenyans are stupid and they need their wisdom to survive. A majority of borrowers know what they are doing. Of course there are some making stupid decisions just like we have people making stupid decisions in all other spheres of life. Nothing new or unique there.

And most of the borrowers have nowhere else to get those loans in the time frame they require them. It is not like one feels too lazy to go get a loan at 13% p.a. from a bank, Sacco or wherever. These people are not stupid!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
tom_boy
#36 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 4:03:37 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
MaichBlack wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



I am sure you know what I mean when I say mobile loans are a form of ponzi. Stop detracting from the main point. The main point is that in my view,

1. mobile loans are not sustainable in the long term ( just like ponzi scheme)

2. They are not beneficial to the majority ( just like a ponzi).

3. They are not capable of helping the majority get out of poverty. Indeed, they may perpetuate poverty by encouraging borrowing at exorbitant rates.

4. Banks may be lending too much to mobile loan customer at expense of sme customer. This hurts the economy.

5. Too much lending to an asset segment that even cbk has not recognised as an asset segment (mobile loans), a segment that is high risk and yet the full high risk is not captured in provisioning.

6. No data on where the mobile money loans are going. Just alot of yada yada about mama mboga and hawkers. ( just like in a ponzi where one never really knows where the money is being invested).


I could go on and on....

1) There is a segment of society that finds mobile loans very beneficial to them. If you are not one of them, leave the loans alone. You don't have to eat everything on the Menu!

2) There are people who borrow and waste money. Even the "normal" loans from banks. Middle class has a habit of borrowing for consumption - Holidays, gadgets, weddings, holidays etc. Anyone with basic economics knowledge will tell you that is a very stupid thing to do! It is not the bank's responsibility to follow you and monitor how you spend money (unless it is something like asset financing etc). The bank's main concern and rightly so, is you ability to repay.

3) A major blanket default will never happen unless there is a major catastrophic event like a breakout of a major and sudden war. The lenders don't just wake up one morning and lend you 70k!!! They start small. say 1k and 2k and that grows depending on your history. The margins are huge enough to cover individual defaults, the risks are spread and the tenure of the loans are short. I don't see what event would lead Kenyans to default enmass on small to average amount loans. May be you should give us one or two examples of REALISTIC events that might lead to sudden (30 day window) MASS defaults!!

4) Banks are businesses. Not charities or the government. They deploy their money in the most profitable manner like all the other businesses or individuals. As bad as it might sound, it is not their responsibility to ensure that SMEs have access to credit (at an expense to their bottom line). That is why the government comes up with things like the youth fund, women fund etc. And it is not just banks.

5) To small businesses that need quick money to be repaid in days or few weeks, the interest is not exorbitant (many people have explained this here). When you compound, of course it is huge but the small business owners don't compound either theoretically (like you are doing) or practically. They pay within the 30 days in which period they will have made much money.

6) Finally, these products have a target market. I for one wouldn't go for mobile loans coz whatever I am doing would require a cycle of number of months (meaning the compounding would be real) and would need a larger amount than I would get via mobile loans. But if I was in a short cycle business like mama mboga, hawker, kiosk, restaurant, broker, most types of traders (getting potatoes from Kinangop, fish from Kisumu, selling uniform - I would need more stock in January compared to most months etc.) I would definitely take advantage of the facility if and when need be!



Too much theory. Zero data to support it.

Time will tell what the true position is.

You evidently have never heard of black swan events and risk management

You are the one with theories my friend. The rest of us are telling you what is actually happening. But evidently you were not interested in an intellectual discourse but only wanted to preach. Preach on...



Do you have data or evidence to show that mobile loans go to fund mama mboga and hawker businesses. If so, produce the evidence. Otherwise you are just parroting what you have been fed by the banks.

Truth is we have been led to believe that mobile loans are essential for businesses. A few businesses may benefit. Many I am sure do not benefit. It goes against economics to try run a biz on mobile loans. Its too risky and default is a must. You just need 2 weeks of downturn. So those theories are porojo.

If you can give evidence on the following, I would appreciate

1. What % of bank loans are mobile loans.

2. What is the default rate of mobile loans?

3. What is the average default time lag. How long on average do defaulters take before they default?

4. What is the correlation between rise and flactuations in mobile loans vis a vis flactuations in mobile betting if any?

Mobile loans are good but should be regulated as a special sector. They pose a significant systemic risk to the banking industry.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
MaichBlack
#37 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 4:12:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,843
tom_boy wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



I am sure you know what I mean when I say mobile loans are a form of ponzi. Stop detracting from the main point. The main point is that in my view,

1. mobile loans are not sustainable in the long term ( just like ponzi scheme)

2. They are not beneficial to the majority ( just like a ponzi).

3. They are not capable of helping the majority get out of poverty. Indeed, they may perpetuate poverty by encouraging borrowing at exorbitant rates.

4. Banks may be lending too much to mobile loan customer at expense of sme customer. This hurts the economy.

5. Too much lending to an asset segment that even cbk has not recognised as an asset segment (mobile loans), a segment that is high risk and yet the full high risk is not captured in provisioning.

6. No data on where the mobile money loans are going. Just alot of yada yada about mama mboga and hawkers. ( just like in a ponzi where one never really knows where the money is being invested).


I could go on and on....

1) There is a segment of society that finds mobile loans very beneficial to them. If you are not one of them, leave the loans alone. You don't have to eat everything on the Menu!

2) There are people who borrow and waste money. Even the "normal" loans from banks. Middle class has a habit of borrowing for consumption - Holidays, gadgets, weddings, holidays etc. Anyone with basic economics knowledge will tell you that is a very stupid thing to do! It is not the bank's responsibility to follow you and monitor how you spend money (unless it is something like asset financing etc). The bank's main concern and rightly so, is you ability to repay.

3) A major blanket default will never happen unless there is a major catastrophic event like a breakout of a major and sudden war. The lenders don't just wake up one morning and lend you 70k!!! They start small. say 1k and 2k and that grows depending on your history. The margins are huge enough to cover individual defaults, the risks are spread and the tenure of the loans are short. I don't see what event would lead Kenyans to default enmass on small to average amount loans. May be you should give us one or two examples of REALISTIC events that might lead to sudden (30 day window) MASS defaults!!

4) Banks are businesses. Not charities or the government. They deploy their money in the most profitable manner like all the other businesses or individuals. As bad as it might sound, it is not their responsibility to ensure that SMEs have access to credit (at an expense to their bottom line). That is why the government comes up with things like the youth fund, women fund etc. And it is not just banks.

5) To small businesses that need quick money to be repaid in days or few weeks, the interest is not exorbitant (many people have explained this here). When you compound, of course it is huge but the small business owners don't compound either theoretically (like you are doing) or practically. They pay within the 30 days in which period they will have made much money.

6) Finally, these products have a target market. I for one wouldn't go for mobile loans coz whatever I am doing would require a cycle of number of months (meaning the compounding would be real) and would need a larger amount than I would get via mobile loans. But if I was in a short cycle business like mama mboga, hawker, kiosk, restaurant, broker, most types of traders (getting potatoes from Kinangop, fish from Kisumu, selling uniform - I would need more stock in January compared to most months etc.) I would definitely take advantage of the facility if and when need be!



Too much theory. Zero data to support it.

Time will tell what the true position is.

You evidently have never heard of black swan events and risk management

You are the one with theories my friend. The rest of us are telling you what is actually happening. But evidently you were not interested in an intellectual discourse but only wanted to preach. Preach on...



Do you have data or evidence to show that mobile loans go to fund mama mboga and hawker businesses. If so, produce the evidence. Otherwise you are just parroting what you have been fed by the banks.

Truth is we have been led to believe that mobile loans are essential for businesses. A few businesses may benefit. Many I am sure do not benefit. It goes against economics to try run a biz on mobile loans. Its too risky and default is a must. You just need 2 weeks of downturn. So those theories are porojo.

If you can give evidence on the following, I would appreciate

1. What % of bank loans are mobile loans.

2. What is the default rate of mobile loans?

3. What is the average default time lag. How long on average do defaulters take before they default?

4. What is the correlation between rise and flactuations in mobile loans vis a vis flactuations in mobile betting if any?

Mobile loans are good but should be regulated as a special sector. They pose a significant systemic risk to the banking industry.

And business owners don't know this and they need you to educate them???
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
MaichBlack
#38 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 4:18:46 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,843
I have said this and I will repeat one last time, mobile loans are not for everyone. If they fit your profile, take them. If they don't leave them alone. If they fit your profile, but you have better options, go for the better option. Simple.

And banks have done their risk analysis and priced in the risk. That same risk analysis is the same reason they have frozen lending to most SMEs.

Now you are telling us all the mobile borrowers and lenders/banks are wrong and they need you to save them!!??
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
tom_boy
#39 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 5:19:31 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
MaichBlack wrote:
I have said this and I will repeat one last time, mobile loans are not for everyone. If they fit your profile, take them. If they don't leave them alone. If they fit your profile, but you have better options, go for the better option. Simple.

And banks have done their risk analysis and priced in the risk. That same risk analysis is the same reason they have frozen lending to most SMEs.

Now you are telling us all the mobile borrowers and lenders/banks are wrong and they need you to save them!!??



Wewe uko na kashida kidogo. I am saying mobile loans pose a systemic risk and should be regulated. You keep saying I am trying to educate individuals about mobile loans. Those are two very different issues.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
MaichBlack
#40 Posted : Wednesday, January 09, 2019 5:23:10 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,843
tom_boy wrote:
Banks have gone as far as offering day loans interest free on mobile. What other use can this money be put to except gambling? Who borrows money in the morning with confidence of repaying by midnight other than a gambler?

What does this portend for out banks? What percent of money is lent to mobile fellas? If an event was to happen that rendered Wanjikus unable to pay, would we see banks collapsing ala mortgage crisis? What kind of event would this be?

Its very scary. I think banks are getting careless. Wanjiku is doing a ponzi scheme via mobile lending from different offerers, at some point the cookie will crumble!

Read this my brother.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
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