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Treasury Bills and Bonds
tom_boy
#1121 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 5:03:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
After some thought, this is my opinion on investing in bonds...... it is not worth the effort from an investment perspective for an individual. It is only worth it if you are retired, have a pile of cash and want a regular steady income. Even then, the return gets gradually diminished every year due to effect of inflation.

The only way to really get rich in this world are

1. Own a successful business
2. Have a high paying job.
3. Inherit loads of cash.
4. Get extremely lucky in stock investing.


Bonds are a waste of time and money to the individual investor. They can only be used to park money to prevent inflation from eating into it as you decide what to do with it. Downside is that you could lose money upon selling early. This prospect is very real in the current situation in KE. I suspect those buying bonds now risk being trapped in by future increases in interest rates. Buy and hold will also erode your long term value especially if inflation goes up. Its a lose-lose scenario.

Infact, I now agree with @mugundaman. Real estate will give you ever increasing returns on your investment because the investment is fixed (initial cost of the property) while the returns ( rental income or sale price) will be inflation adjusted + a premium going forward. ( assuming no major catastrophes e.g demolitions, land degradation etc.)
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
maka
#1122 Posted : Monday, December 24, 2018 11:21:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
tom_boy wrote:
After some thought, this is my opinion on investing in bonds...... it is not worth the effort from an investment perspective for an individual. It is only worth it if you are retired, have a pile of cash and want a regular steady income. Even then, the return gets gradually diminished every year due to effect of inflation.

The only way to really get rich in this world are

1. Own a successful business
2. Have a high paying job.
3. Inherit loads of cash.
4. Get extremely lucky in stock investing.


Bonds are a waste of time and money to the individual investor. They can only be used to park money to prevent inflation from eating into it as you decide what to do with it. Downside is that you could lose money upon selling early. This prospect is very real in the current situation in KE. I suspect those buying bonds now risk being trapped in by future increases in interest rates. Buy and hold will also erode your long term value especially if inflation goes up. Its a lose-lose scenario.

Infact, I now agree with @mugundaman. Real estate will give you ever increasing returns on your investment because the investment is fixed (initial cost of the property) while the returns ( rental income or sale price) will be inflation adjusted + a premium going forward. ( assuming no major catastrophes e.g demolitions, land degradation etc.)


The best thing about this world is that you are entitled to your opinion smile To each his own...
possunt quia posse videntur
Impunity
#1123 Posted : Monday, December 24, 2018 12:39:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
After some thought, this is my opinion on investing in bonds...... it is not worth the effort from an investment perspective for an individual. It is only worth it if you are retired, have a pile of cash and want a regular steady income. Even then, the return gets gradually diminished every year due to effect of inflation.

The only way to really get rich in this world are

1. Own a successful business
2. Have a high paying job.
3. Inherit loads of cash.
4. Get extremely lucky in stock investing.


Bonds are a waste of time and money to the individual investor. They can only be used to park money to prevent inflation from eating into it as you decide what to do with it. Downside is that you could lose money upon selling early. This prospect is very real in the current situation in KE. I suspect those buying bonds now risk being trapped in by future increases in interest rates. Buy and hold will also erode your long term value especially if inflation goes up. Its a lose-lose scenario.

Infact, I now agree with @mugundaman. Real estate will give you ever increasing returns on your investment because the investment is fixed (initial cost of the property) while the returns ( rental income or sale price) will be inflation adjusted + a premium going forward. ( assuming no major catastrophes e.g demolitions, land degradation etc.)


The best thing about this world is that you are entitled to your opinion smile To each his own...


Eti inherit loads of cash.
Nkt
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

tom_boy
#1124 Posted : Monday, December 24, 2018 2:44:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
After some thought, this is my opinion on investing in bonds...... it is not worth the effort from an investment perspective for an individual. It is only worth it if you are retired, have a pile of cash and want a regular steady income. Even then, the return gets gradually diminished every year due to effect of inflation.

The only way to really get rich in this world are

1. Own a successful business
2. Have a high paying job.
3. Inherit loads of cash.
4. Get extremely lucky in stock investing.


Bonds are a waste of time and money to the individual investor. They can only be used to park money to prevent inflation from eating into it as you decide what to do with it. Downside is that you could lose money upon selling early. This prospect is very real in the current situation in KE. I suspect those buying bonds now risk being trapped in by future increases in interest rates. Buy and hold will also erode your long term value especially if inflation goes up. Its a lose-lose scenario.

Infact, I now agree with @mugundaman. Real estate will give you ever increasing returns on your investment because the investment is fixed (initial cost of the property) while the returns ( rental income or sale price) will be inflation adjusted + a premium going forward. ( assuming no major catastrophes e.g demolitions, land degradation etc.)


The best thing about this world is that you are entitled to your opinion smile To each his own...


I used this formula to calculate inflation adjusted return

(1+rate of return) ^n
------------------------------ - 1
(1+ inflation rate) ^n

Correct me if I am wrong tafadhali.

The rate of return and inflation are expressed as a decimal, as in 12% is 0.12, 6% is 0.06 and n is number of yrs.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
tom_boy
#1125 Posted : Tuesday, December 25, 2018 8:11:41 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
maka
#1126 Posted : Tuesday, December 25, 2018 11:43:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....
possunt quia posse videntur
Impunity
#1127 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2018 2:55:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Angelica _ann
#1128 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2018 2:57:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!


Chasing fundis mpaka in your retirement & only ends at RIP!!!smile
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
Yliett
#1129 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2018 3:29:32 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/23/2018
Posts: 38
Location: germany
I think that bonds of any sort are the best sort of investment for you. There are many other great investments but bonds are the most safe way. There are so many great bonds available for you. What do you think are the best sort of bonds for people on a stable income?
tom_boy
#1130 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2018 6:22:57 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
Yliett wrote:
I think that bonds of any sort are the best sort of investment for you. There are many other great investments but bonds are the most safe way. There are so many great bonds available for you. What do you think are the best sort of bonds for people on a stable income?


Eh?
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
Impunity
#1131 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2018 9:05:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
Angelica _ann wrote:
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!


Chasing fundis mpaka in your retirement & only ends at RIP!!!smile


Aka Kirima...at 80 plus and failing health,he was still building plots for rent.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

maka
#1132 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2018 8:21:29 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Impunity wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!


Chasing fundis mpaka in your retirement & only ends at RIP!!!smile


Aka Kirima...at 80 plus and failing health,he was still building plots for rent.



Not me @ 80 I should be bumming at Sunset Beach in CT going to the Ferryman's Tavern everynight with the love of my lifesmile
possunt quia posse videntur
Impunity
#1133 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2018 9:10:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
maka wrote:
Impunity wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!


Chasing fundis mpaka in your retirement & only ends at RIP!!!smile


Aka Kirima...at 80 plus and failing health,he was still building plots for rent.



Not me @ 80 I should be bumming at Sunset Beach in CT going to the Ferryman's Tavern everynight with the love of my lifesmile


People want to toil their entire active life and invest in plots which will make them billionaires 60 years from today...they are doing all these because of their children,and children's children.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

maka
#1134 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2018 9:59:52 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
Impunity wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Impunity wrote:
maka wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.



Some of us have very simple goals in life...

(1) Always be liquid...
(2) Meet your obligations/provide for your family
...
(3) Travel the world.

Wouldn't want to live in a temporary world like a permanent citizen....


Permanent and pensionable citizen!


Chasing fundis mpaka in your retirement & only ends at RIP!!!smile


Aka Kirima...at 80 plus and failing health,he was still building plots for rent.



Not me @ 80 I should be bumming at Sunset Beach in CT going to the Ferryman's Tavern everynight with the love of my lifesmile


People want to toil their entire active life and invest in plots which will make them billionaires 60 years from today...they are doing all these because of their children,and children's children.


Its an African thing I guess... Sad

When you die the kids squander that cash proper...Anyway there should be balance... Its good to make money...Its very good if you make lots of it but also enjoy a bit live life...
possunt quia posse videntur
tom_boy
#1135 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2018 10:32:33 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
Hapo kweli, balance is what is needed. Balance is determined by your own personal goals.

I think all investments are good depending on your goal and time horizon. At 60yrs, there is a good chance you will still be alive for another 15yrs to 20yrs. I believe thats the time to liquidate non cashflow real estate and stocks and buy into bonds. This gives regular income and hopefully your kitty is such that it will outlive you. If I have cash earning real estate, I may decide to keep it.

At less than 50yrs and especially in 30s and 40s, I would bulk up on real estate and stocks. Granted, I may die at 55 without enjoying my cash, but statistically, this is the outlier rather than the norm for a kenyan mido krass
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
MugundaMan
#1136 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2018 11:13:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
tom_boy wrote:
After some thought, this is my opinion on investing in bonds...... it is not worth the effort from an investment perspective for an individual. It is only worth it if you are retired, have a pile of cash and want a regular steady income. Even then, the return gets gradually diminished every year due to effect of inflation.

The only way to really get rich in this world are

1. Own a successful business
2. Have a high paying job.
3. Inherit loads of cash.
4. Get extremely lucky in stock investing.


Bonds are a waste of time and money to the individual investor. They can only be used to park money to prevent inflation from eating into it as you decide what to do with it. Downside is that you could lose money upon selling early. This prospect is very real in the current situation in KE. I suspect those buying bonds now risk being trapped in by future increases in interest rates. Buy and hold will also erode your long term value especially if inflation goes up. Its a lose-lose scenario.

Infact, I now agree with @mugundaman. Real estate will give you ever increasing returns on your investment because the investment is fixed (initial cost of the property) while the returns ( rental income or sale price) will be inflation adjusted + a premium going forward. ( assuming no major catastrophes e.g demolitions, land degradation etc.)



Good on ya.
But remember Mugundaman owns bonds too smile

All smart people in Kiinya know
1. R.E in all its legit forms (construction, rentals, land sales, agriculture etc) is where the low risk high return moolah is
2. Bonds - when structured well - is where the safety and liquidity is despite the average returns.
3. Casino (NSE) is where the gambling with chump change to pass time and cure boredom action is.

It is a no brainer but most people do not see it so you cannot blame them. When you see folks putting 90% of their savings in NSE or bitcoin or blatant scams like Gakuyo, PRC or greenhouses you just shake your head in amusement and amazement.
mv_ufanisi
#1137 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2018 12:27:11 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.


Over the last 10 years, the NSE has been a net capital destroyer with the NSE Index going from 3000 to 2819.

CBK bills and bonds would have returned at least 10% annual interest which compounded over 10 years would have returned more than 250% return.

Lending to GOK is as safe as safe gets while beating the NSE over a 10 year period which for most people is very long term.

Don't look down on slow and steady returns from CBK, the secret is compounding.

Not to mention the ease of liquidating your position in case you suddenly need money. Also there is a lot of peace of mind as you won't wake up to some other guy holding a title to the land you supposedly own. The risk of GOK not paying you is pretty much almost non-existent. No sane govt will risk defaulting on bills and bonds and hasn't happened in Kenya's history.
tom_boy
#1138 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2018 8:07:51 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
mv_ufanisi wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.


Over the last 10 years, the NSE has been a net capital destroyer with the NSE Index going from 3000 to 2819.

CBK bills and bonds would have returned at least 10% annual interest which compounded over 10 years would have returned more than 250% return.

Lending to GOK is as safe as safe gets while beating the NSE over a 10 year period which for most people is very long term.

Don't look down on slow and steady returns from CBK, the secret is compounding.

Not to mention the ease of liquidating your position in case you suddenly need money. Also there is a lot of peace of mind as you won't wake up to some other guy holding a title to the land you supposedly own. The risk of GOK not paying you is pretty much almost non-existent. No sane govt will risk defaulting on bills and bonds and hasn't happened in Kenya's history.


I think you totally ignored 2 major arguements against longterm bonds

1. Effect of inflation on the principle (majorly) and concept of inflation adjusted return.

2. Fact that you can risk a loss if you sell on secondary market, thus idea of easy liquidation can come at unacceptable cost.

3. When comparing with NSE, you also need to consider dividends paid over 10yrs by companies comprising whatever index you are using then compound that dividend so that the comparison is fair.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
mv_ufanisi
#1139 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2018 12:42:27 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
tom_boy wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.


Over the last 10 years, the NSE has been a net capital destroyer with the NSE Index going from 3000 to 2819.

CBK bills and bonds would have returned at least 10% annual interest which compounded over 10 years would have returned more than 250% return.

Lending to GOK is as safe as safe gets while beating the NSE over a 10 year period which for most people is very long term.

Don't look down on slow and steady returns from CBK, the secret is compounding.

Not to mention the ease of liquidating your position in case you suddenly need money. Also there is a lot of peace of mind as you won't wake up to some other guy holding a title to the land you supposedly own. The risk of GOK not paying you is pretty much almost non-existent. No sane govt will risk defaulting on bills and bonds and hasn't happened in Kenya's history.


I think you totally ignored 2 major arguements against longterm bonds

1. Effect of inflation on the principle (majorly) and concept of inflation adjusted return.

2. Fact that you can risk a loss if you sell on secondary market, thus idea of easy liquidation can come at unacceptable cost.

3. When comparing with NSE, you also need to consider dividends paid over 10yrs by companies comprising whatever index you are using then compound that dividend so that the comparison is fair.


I don't worry about inflation because that equally affects the return whether you get it from T-Bills or from Real Estate or NSE. It's a constant factor. So if I know what the NSE returned I can compare directly with the return from the CBK T-Bills and such.

You do risk a loss if you sell on secondary market for bonds but the CBK will still provide a way for you to liquidate your position on any T-bill via discounting.

The NSE has performed even worse than the index suggests because of the practice of replacing poor performing companies that were previously in the index with new ones. That hides a lot of losses e.g. Mumias, KQ and such were removed and replaced with better performers.

This is similar to the practice of private schools registering high performing students who were previously in public school as their candidates and registering weak students in public schools during national exams in a bid to artificially improve their performance.
Impunity
#1140 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2018 1:36:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
mv_ufanisi wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
From rough math, an investment of 1m in a 12% coupon bond over 10yrs with interest invested at 12% compounding annually and assumed inflation at 6% , will yield an inflation adjusted sh 2.2m. That is 120% growth after 10yrs.

This is assuming you can re invest interest at 12% compounding yr on yr. If you only manage 10% investment on interest, then your return drops to 100% in 10yrs.

This is least return compared to stocks and real estate. The danger of bonds is that if you are forced to sell before maturity, there is very real risk of losing money, going forward. I dont think the current low interest rates will hold but thats just me dreaming.

My conclusion would be if one has some cash and just wants regular dependable income, go for bonds. If hoping to grow your money into a sizeable kitty in the next 10 to fifteen yrs, work hard at your daily job and invest in stocks and earth.

Compare this with buying land. A plot bought at 1m, assume same inflation of 6% applied to the land and it will be worth 2.8m in 10yrs. I have seen land values go up much faster than this.

If you have more cash and buy and develop for rental income, you can see how the rental income will compound and far outdo bonds.

Botton line, in bond investing, your principle loses valUe over time. What you do with the interest is what will help you gain value.


Over the last 10 years, the NSE has been a net capital destroyer with the NSE Index going from 3000 to 2819.

CBK bills and bonds would have returned at least 10% annual interest which compounded over 10 years would have returned more than 250% return.

Lending to GOK is as safe as safe gets while beating the NSE over a 10 year period which for most people is very long term.

Don't look down on slow and steady returns from CBK, the secret is compounding.

Not to mention the ease of liquidating your position in case you suddenly need money. Also there is a lot of peace of mind as you won't wake up to some other guy holding a title to the land you supposedly own. The risk of GOK not paying you is pretty much almost non-existent. No sane govt will risk defaulting on bills and bonds and hasn't happened in Kenya's history.


I think you totally ignored 2 major arguements against longterm bonds

1. Effect of inflation on the principle (majorly) and concept of inflation adjusted return.

2. Fact that you can risk a loss if you sell on secondary market, thus idea of easy liquidation can come at unacceptable cost.

3. When comparing with NSE, you also need to consider dividends paid over 10yrs by companies comprising whatever index you are using then compound that dividend so that the comparison is fair.


I don't worry about inflation because that equally affects the return whether you get it from T-Bills or from Real Estate or NSE. It's a constant factor. So if I know what the NSE returned I can compare directly with the return from the CBK T-Bills and such.

You do risk a loss if you sell on secondary market for bonds but the CBK will still provide a way for you to liquidate your position on any T-bill via discounting.

The NSE has performed even worse than the index suggests because of the practice of replacing poor performing companies that were previously in the index with new ones. That hides a lot of losses e.g. Mumias, KQ and such were removed and replaced with better performers.

This is similar to the practice of private schools registering high performing students who were previously in public school as their candidates and registering weak students in public schools during national exams in a bid to artificially improve their performance.


Nditto.
Word!
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

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