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PCEA vs Kikuyu Kiama
tycho
#31 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:50:51 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
@Lolest wacha kumanganga and stick to the topic! From what I have explained above about the admission and working of the Ciaama cia Athuri could you please point out what these Ciamas do that the church does not do.
By the way, circumcision of girls has never been and was never an agenda in Ciama activities and deliberations and was never dealt with at Ciama level.

That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors.

That's worship.


Does respect and obedience to presbyters entail worship?
tycho
#32 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:55:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
alma1 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Its a pity that the African is so brain washed to think his traditions are evil yet he will accept and participate in other cultures and traditions such as eating the body (sacrament) and drinking the blood.

Ndio sasa PCEA wanasema if you want to follow those ways of your ancestors ujue hailingani na Ukristo.

Why do people still want to be recognized as Christians if they think it's foreign and that our ancestors' ways were perfect?

Just be true to the god of the mountain and also to your ancestors. Pour libations and sacrifice to them. Go the whole hog and circumcise your daughters.

It's the superior way of the ancestors, right?


This is the reason why I say Africans are very confused. Very confused. No wonder we have so many problems.

If you decide you are a Christian. Please stick to Christinity.

If you decide you are a Muslim. Please stick to Islam.

If you decide you are a kiama kinda fella, PCEA has said wewe sio wao.

Sasa mnataka nini? This confusion in the Kikuyu especially is just a bit too much. You will never see me joining a kiama coz I see absolutely no purpose for it. Other than eating the money from a young guy hustling to marry their daughter. What purpose is this Kiama thing?

Watu wachague. Stop being confused and bringing confusion to your own families.

Applause Applause Yeah, choose for yourselves as Joshua said. Or as Elijah asked, 'For how long will you waver between 2 opinions?'


Why is it necessarily either or, when the reality is more complicated?

For example, not all Christianity denies the Kiama...

Christianity has always been traditional and for political reasons!


alma1
#33 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 6:43:19 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
tycho wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
alma1 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Its a pity that the African is so brain washed to think his traditions are evil yet he will accept and participate in other cultures and traditions such as eating the body (sacrament) and drinking the blood.

Ndio sasa PCEA wanasema if you want to follow those ways of your ancestors ujue hailingani na Ukristo.

Why do people still want to be recognized as Christians if they think it's foreign and that our ancestors' ways were perfect?

Just be true to the god of the mountain and also to your ancestors. Pour libations and sacrifice to them. Go the whole hog and circumcise your daughters.

It's the superior way of the ancestors, right?


This is the reason why I say Africans are very confused. Very confused. No wonder we have so many problems.

If you decide you are a Christian. Please stick to Christinity.

If you decide you are a Muslim. Please stick to Islam.

If you decide you are a kiama kinda fella, PCEA has said wewe sio wao.

Sasa mnataka nini? This confusion in the Kikuyu especially is just a bit too much. You will never see me joining a kiama coz I see absolutely no purpose for it. Other than eating the money from a young guy hustling to marry their daughter. What purpose is this Kiama thing?

Watu wachague. Stop being confused and bringing confusion to your own families.

Applause Applause Yeah, choose for yourselves as Joshua said. Or as Elijah asked, 'For how long will you waver between 2 opinions?'


Why is it necessarily either or, when the reality is more complicated?

For example, not all Christianity denies the Kiama...

Christianity has always been traditional and for political reasons!




Because as much as you philosophers may want to potray life, it is an either or.

I have seen Kiamas.

Usually old men in their twilight zone trying to convince a young sharp guy in their 40's to join. Telling them that they will drink Muratina and such crap.

The truth is and for the sake of the fake laws, you've been had.

If you paid mahari your kiama and now want to force your kids to do the same, wacha ushenzi wako nyuma, tafadhali. If I refuse, UTAFANYA NINI? UTANIROGA? AMA UNIITE JARUOS?

I have seen the Kiama supporters here. I call it the Stockholm syndrome. Sine you paid, you want to force your kids to pay. Using stupid things like sijui you shall be cursed.

Cursed by whom? A drunkard?

Christians are Christians. I believe that my savior is Jesus Christ. Ok I'm kidding. But hell, if that's what I believe, why the hell should I pay some stupid people mbuzis?

If you want to have a club, please call it a club. Just like Muthaiga is for golfers. Don't make young people feel gulty for not buying you Muratina.

I'm a kyuk, my grand father was in Mau Mau. I have not seen a Kiama asshole help me in shit. but they turn up when there's booze in the house.

If they want to leave PCEA, si waende wafunue yao!!!!

Ati PCEA, physics says, the world will and shall rotate with or without Kiama drunkards.


Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

Kaigangio
#34 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:12:01 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/27/2007
Posts: 2,768
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
@Lolest wacha kumanganga and stick to the topic! From what I have explained above about the admission and working of the Ciaama cia Athuri could you please point out what these Ciamas do that the church does not do.
By the way, circumcision of girls has never been and was never an agenda in Ciama activities and deliberations and was never dealt with at Ciama level.

That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors.

That's worship.


That is what the PCEA church young pastors want you to believe but all that is nonsense or rubbish to be precise.

There is no one time when the Agikuyu people made offerings to the ancestors...never did.
Any offering/sacrifices that were directed to Ngai (God) or that required God's intervention were done to God and only to God Alone under a Mugumo tree and only under a Mugumo tree.
Any other ritual or ceremony that necessitated the slaughtering of a sheep was only directed at that particular event and could be carried out anywhere else in the bush either under a tree or on an open space.

The Agikuyu "pastors" who performed these sacrifices (that were directed towards God) were not any ordinary people picked from nowhere and planted there like the church does. These were people who had been picked from Ciama cia Athuri and who had undergone all the stages of Kiama hierachy and were known to be thorough and just in their judgements, people who had won community and Ciama accolades from their past achievements both as parents and leaders within the community, people whose integrity could not be questioned, people who had already finished family task of bearing any more children as in they were old (over 70 years). The mantle was passed on to these people not by the Ciama but their predicessors who were also Ciama members.

...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
masukuma
#35 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:23:55 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
While humans groups differ slightly biologically - the biggest differences happen to occur in the myths they intersubjectively choose to believe in. That's it... tofauti ya mwafrica na mzungu ni hiyo tu!the state that mzungu lived was no different from that ya mwafrican 1500 years ago. We were exactly the same for 65,000 years! The biological differences between mzungu and mwafrica did not start juzi. Tofauti ya Mkenya na Mtanzania ni hiyo pia... the myths we choose to believe in. Tofauti ya state of mkenya na mtanzania sio 100 years old. Same as the state of Kenyans and South Sudanese or Somali. Mjaluo wa Kenya and MDinka have very little biological difference but the myths they choose/forced/grew up with are different and it explains their differences. So the stark difference even in Kenya between one group of people (can be a family or an ethnic community or brothers are the myths they believe in). We do agree that some people are 'ahead' of others on some fronts. Denmark for example is a much nicer place to be when you are an old person than south sudan. All these differences are caused by 'culture' - the collection of myths we live our lives by. Unlike the differences in the biology of people - the differences in culture are HUGE... there are SUPERIOR CULTURES and there are RETROGRESSIVE CULTURES. The very fact that we have 'our' culture is a myth... enforced by these cultures to help them stay relevant and propagate. Each culture that did not have an effective 'propagation' mechanism -died when the guy who imagined it died! Once others choose to believe it... the culture lives on... if we don't - it dies ... most of these myths were indoctrinated to us when we didn't know better - when young and impressionable. The only way a RETROGRESSIVE MYTH can be propagated to a person who knows better is through guilt! But let's not fall for it! let's be held at ransom to hold on to what is demonstrably inferior and self-serving JUST BECAUSE OUR ANCESTORS COULD NOT COME UP WITH A BETTER MYTH especially because we know better myths exist! You are not your ancestor! It's quite likely that the ancestor who first dreamed what you were being guilt tripped into believing and enforcing knew what you know - they would not come up with what they came up with. They can be excused for their ignorance - you cannot!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
alma1
#36 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:25:59 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
Kaigangio wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
@Lolest wacha kumanganga and stick to the topic! From what I have explained above about the admission and working of the Ciaama cia Athuri could you please point out what these Ciamas do that the church does not do.
By the way, circumcision of girls has never been and was never an agenda in Ciama activities and deliberations and was never dealt with at Ciama level.

That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors.

That's worship.


That is what the PCEA church young pastors want you to believe but all that is nonsense or rubbish to be precise.

There is no one time when the Agikuyu people made offerings to the ancestors...never did.
Any offering/sacrifices that were directed to Ngai (God) or that required God's intervention were done to God and only to God Alone under a Mugumo tree and only under a Mugumo tree.
Any other ritual or ceremony that necessitated the slaughtering of a sheep was only directed at that particular event and could be carried out anywhere else in the bush either under a tree or on an open space.

The Agikuyu "pastors" who performed these sacrifices (that were directed towards God) were not any ordinary people picked from nowhere and planted there like the church does. These were people who had been picked from Ciama cia Athuri and who had undergone all the stages of Kiama hierachy and were known to be thorough and just in their judgements, people who had won community and Ciama accolades from their past achievements both as parents and leaders within the community, people whose integrity could not be questioned, people who had already finished family task of bearing any more children as in they were old (over 70 years). The mantle was passed on to these people not by the Ciama but their predicessors who were also Ciama members.



ok.

With the fear of being called a stalker and anti-kaiganjio. Ill say this.

That's bullllllllshit.

Masukuma shall tell you that africans reaching the age of 50 was amazing.

But forget science. Let me tell you what I've seen. And know.

Ciama cia athuri was a noble idea. Where men or women who have done special things had special status.

But let's look at the Ciamas now.

The only way you can become a ciama member is to behave like a ciama member. Steal, and make money. Say it's not so.

I have been invited to many ciamas. I have seen some of the people there and I was like...ouch..how?

These people right now are trying to get to you with previous Kikuyu traditions. But the same people will tell you to vote for a thief. A known thief.

There's no ciama here.

Ni kudanganywa tu.

Now I want to hear that I've been cursed.

By lazy drunkards who have no problem stealing land from Atheni.

These so called ciama people only turn up for mbuzis. So many people in central have died. Shot by the police, had an accident, got a cold. You will never see these things called ciamas. But please buy a goat. Ndio haooooooo. With famous Kikuyu proverbs.

I'm a Christian. I don't believe your shit!!! Mtado wah???


If you want to be with PCEA, kaa na PCEA. If you want to thai thai thai nonsence, then move on to Mungiki. Apana jifanya hapa.

If you go to church on Sunday and still believe in thai thai thai nonsense, you are a fool. There's a difference between behavior and religion.
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

tycho
#37 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:30:28 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@alma#001, that the Kiana is now a days corrupt is one thing that is very distant from the main issue at hand.

The main issue here, is if, the Presbyterian Church is in order when it declares people who partake in a certain traditional ceremony as 'unchristian' and therefore what?

We should be concerned when a critical institution like the Church takes such an approach. Clearly, what's the main concern of the Church in this case? Denying you what?

It's very difficult for me to see how the Presbyters are being Christian on this matter. This is politics. It's a simple desire to control.

Of course you are a control freak alma. We all know it. But, we're all limited creatures who can never figure it all out. Why can't we just even revere our ancestors for that matter?

Is it true, for example, that Christ is the first and last ancestor? It can't be. And the discourse of Christ is the very discourse of our ancestors.

It's the same tyranny of fear being played on people! Wake up alma!
tycho
#38 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:46:33 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@masukuma, myths are not the triffling things that you present them as.

And myths are never arbitrary.

Also know there can never be pure intersubjectivity without objectivity.
kawi254
#39 Posted : Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:06:50 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/20/2015
Posts: 468
Location: Nairobi
Truth be told, from a non-kikuyu, attending a Kikuyu social functions i am never able to tell if it is a church function or a cultural function. Modern Kikuyu(ism) so intertwined with Christian(ism).

Kikuyu's were monotheist worshiping one God not so different from monotheistic Christian God. Is it far-fetched to think that 2000 years of Ethiopians [our neighbors up North] Christian/Judaistic beliefs didn't reach the Kikuyu's?
Lolest!
#40 Posted : Friday, May 25, 2018 6:53:36 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal.

Stupid own goal? Is the role of the church to encourage people to fill up church without caring what they believe in?

That would be a big interreligious social club! Not church.

The church has one big role-pointing people to Christ. Of course people offering sacrifices to ancestors defeats this aim!
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