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Mjengo ianze! Penny-Stocker and other gurus, help!
Rank: New-farer Joined: 8/23/2015 Posts: 64 Location: nairobi
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My neighbour used contractors, I used local fundis. Our projects were almost similar(Mansionettes). 3 months later, my skeleton was done, he was still at the ground floor.After *3 expenses, he gave up,threw out the contractor and is now using my local fundis.usigongwe tena!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,516 Location: nairobi
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point wrote:My neighbour used contractors, I used local fundis. Our projects were almost similar(Mansionettes). 3 months later, my skeleton was done, he was still at the ground floor.After *3 expenses, he gave up,threw out the contractor and is now using my local fundis.usigongwe tena! No compromise can be reached on this matter. It all depends on whether one is ready to risk integrity of the structure over the long term.. As @swenani says periodic supervision has never killed anyone. Some of the praised fundis are responsible for collapsed buildings all over the country HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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point wrote:My neighbour used contractors, I used local fundis. Our projects were almost similar(Mansionettes). 3 months later, my skeleton was done, he was still at the ground floor.After *3 expenses, he gave up,threw out the contractor and is now using my local fundis.usigongwe tena! It's not enough to use professionals and pass the bulk of overseeing project to them. It is your project. You should oversee it. Personally, where possible. An example is passing the bulk of your health to your doctor. The onus is upon you to be responsible and accountable.. Say, would you opt for nurses and clinical officers, where doctors come recommended? Because structural defects would not only compromise your life, but that of your family
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2015 Posts: 681 Location: Kenya
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A guy where I'm doing my project went the local fundis way without the professionals. Did a beautiful massionate record time. Problem, bearly three months after completion the staircase and one corner has started sagging. I'm told to correct that it will be a milli or more. Have arranged the structural engineer to be doing selected visits during the critical stages. Not too much cost by the way. 60% Learning, 30% synthesizing, 10% Debating
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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MugundaMan wrote:Kaigangio wrote:@mugundaman, if: 1. you cannot tell the difference between white, brown or grey sands, 2. you cannot tell the difference between course and fine sand and in which parts of the building they are suitable to be used, 3. you cannot tell the difference between a masonry and RC wall, 4. you cannot decode the information from the structural engineers designs/drawings 5. you cannot tell the difference between the upper and lower strata natural stone 6. you cannot tell the difference between Ceramic, Granite, Travertine, Porcelain, Pebble and Stone Tile and where they are used within the building, 7. you cannot tell the difference between the various types of paints and where they are applied within the building, 8. you cannot tell the different types of MDFs and block boards in the market
then your presence at the construction site will add no value at all to the execution and the quality of the works and you might just end up with a more expensive project than you would have had when the professionals that you are trying to avoid were on board. Kigangio, I know we are eating your goat by cutting you guys out of the picture but the things above are not rocket science, brother. I saw a brilliant thread by kina pablo a few years ago that I have saved to donate to my future grandkids as one of the most valuable threads on cyberspace. It shed clean, dazzling light on the massive conmanship being pulled on the average Joe by the so called "professionals" in the mjengo industry. Sorry but I will not part with even a glittering ndururu more for my project than necessary by hiring those vultures beyond the absolute minimum possible that is necessary by our good laws. @mugundaman...hehe not really. Those things that i have mentioned above are a rocket science. Professionals don't con you in any way. They give you facts and knowledge and charge for it. The people who con you are the foremen, fundis and those other quacks who hang around pretending to be professionals. Before i narrate to you some real life experiences with people like yourself who thought like yourself, I will tell you that any mess in a construction project begins with the owner most of the time...Let me give you a small example: You go out there to buy some sand because you know everything about it and depend largely on the advice of fundis because you do not want to spend an extra shilling on architect or structural engineer's advice. At one yard you find a 20 ton truck filled with sand. On inquiring, you are told that the truckful is going for kshs 25,000 sand from masinga. You leave the yard for another and find a truck with similar tonnage to the first one and on inquiry, you are told that it is going for kshs 15,000 sand from masinga. Since you are with your fundi, in both instances you tell him to go up the trucks and look at the sand. He does that, comes down with sample of sand from trucks and hands them over to you and he tells you to go for the kshs 15,000 truck sand which he tells you is good and it is the one they have been using within your project area and besides kshs 5,000 is a lot of saving on bulk sand purchases. You settle for the cheaper sand. You leave satisfied that you got a good deal after placing exclusive orders for the kshs 15,000 sand any time the sand is required. After finishing the project and the family or tenants move in all is good and the atmosphere is excellent. You have completed a project which you yourself supervised and you can even show it to your friends and relatives, ocassionally saying how tough you are...until one day when you are you are having a meal of githeri special for lunch a telephone call is placed on your cell phone by the occupier of your recently completed premises and they tell you that they have noticed a crack in the sitting room wall running from left to right and another one in the kitchen running vertically at an angle. You call your fundi and the painter and head to the building to repair the cracks which you continue repairing till kingdom come. When you cannot take it any more you start looking for the architect or the structural engineer..Fair enough? ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,211 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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obiero wrote: I don’t think we are saying different things. What I am against is the one who said professionals mean nothing! @mugundaman to be precise
Obiesh, Stop putting words in my mouth, brother. Notice I already used a professional to design the ka-structure and to file for approvals. Notice I also agreed above with the occasional site visit method for the same fellows. So I have nothing against the "pros" doing their limited work. What I refuse to completely do is give the architect the total control he craves, to the point of wanting to clear the bushes on my dime! Iyo nimekataa kata kata. Never. Not happening.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,211 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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point wrote:My neighbour used contractors, I used local fundis. Our projects were almost similar(Mansionettes). 3 months later, my skeleton was done, he was still at the ground floor.After *3 expenses, he gave up,threw out the contractor and is now using my local fundis.usigongwe tena! Absolutely nothing to add to this perfect post. Point umegonga point tena proper.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,211 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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Kaigangio wrote: @mugundaman...hehe not really. Those things that i have mentioned above are a rocket science. Professionals don't con you in any way. They give you facts and knowledge and charge for it. The people who con you are the foremen, fundis and those other quacks who hang around pretending to be professionals.
Before i narrate to you some real life experiences with people like yourself who thought like yourself, I will tell you that any mess in a construction project begins with the owner most of the time...Let me give you a small example:
You go out there to buy some sand because you know everything about it and depend largely on the advice of fundis because you do not want to spend an extra shilling on architect or structural engineer's advice.
At one yard you find a 20 ton truck filled with sand. On inquiring, you are told that the truckful is going for kshs 25,000 sand from masinga. You leave the yard for another and find a truck with similar tonnage to the first one and on inquiry, you are told that it is going for kshs 15,000 sand from masinga. Since you are with your fundi, in both instances you tell him to go up the trucks and look at the sand. He does that, comes down with sample of sand from trucks and hands them over to you and he tells you to go for the kshs 15,000 truck sand which he tells you is good and it is the one they have been using within your project area and besides kshs 5,000 is a lot of saving on bulk sand purchases. You settle for the cheaper sand.
You leave satisfied that you got a good deal after placing exclusive orders for the kshs 15,000 sand any time the sand is required.
After finishing the project and the family or tenants move in all is good and the atmosphere is excellent. You have completed a project which you yourself supervised and you can even show it to your friends and relatives, ocassionally saying how tough you are...until one day when you are you are having a meal of githeri special for lunch a telephone call is placed on your cell phone by the occupier of your recently completed premises and they tell you that they have noticed a crack in the sitting room wall running from left to right and another one in the kitchen running vertically at an angle.
You call your fundi and the painter and head to the building to repair the cracks which you continue repairing till kingdom come. When you cannot take it any more you start looking for the architect or the structural engineer..Fair enough?
Kaigangio, You are the king of scaremongering But don't you think someone about to put down their life savings in a mjengo will do some simple research (to add to the tons of research already done, including the famous Question for A4architect thread) to at least have a rough idea of what type of sand is needed where and for what purpose? And on what type of tile goes where? And don't you think you are making matters worse by not sharing your vast knowledge about these matters here with the rest of us instead of hoarding it for yourself? Bottom line I think you should share, not scare, otherwise we are wasting time piling internet detritus hapa Wazoo.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,516 Location: nairobi
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Kaigangio wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Kaigangio wrote:@mugundaman, if: 1. you cannot tell the difference between white, brown or grey sands, 2. you cannot tell the difference between course and fine sand and in which parts of the building they are suitable to be used, 3. you cannot tell the difference between a masonry and RC wall, 4. you cannot decode the information from the structural engineers designs/drawings 5. you cannot tell the difference between the upper and lower strata natural stone 6. you cannot tell the difference between Ceramic, Granite, Travertine, Porcelain, Pebble and Stone Tile and where they are used within the building, 7. you cannot tell the difference between the various types of paints and where they are applied within the building, 8. you cannot tell the different types of MDFs and block boards in the market
then your presence at the construction site will add no value at all to the execution and the quality of the works and you might just end up with a more expensive project than you would have had when the professionals that you are trying to avoid were on board. Kigangio, I know we are eating your goat by cutting you guys out of the picture but the things above are not rocket science, brother. I saw a brilliant thread by kina pablo a few years ago that I have saved to donate to my future grandkids as one of the most valuable threads on cyberspace. It shed clean, dazzling light on the massive conmanship being pulled on the average Joe by the so called "professionals" in the mjengo industry. Sorry but I will not part with even a glittering ndururu more for my project than necessary by hiring those vultures beyond the absolute minimum possible that is necessary by our good laws. @mugundaman...hehe not really. Those things that i have mentioned above are a rocket science. Professionals don't con you in any way. They give you facts and knowledge and charge for it. The people who con you are the foremen, fundis and those other quacks who hang around pretending to be professionals. Before i narrate to you some real life experiences with people like yourself who thought like yourself, I will tell you that any mess in a construction project begins with the owner most of the time...Let me give you a small example: You go out there to buy some sand because you know everything about it and depend largely on the advice of fundis because you do not want to spend an extra shilling on architect or structural engineer's advice. At one yard you find a 20 ton truck filled with sand. On inquiring, you are told that the truckful is going for kshs 25,000 sand from masinga. You leave the yard for another and find a truck with similar tonnage to the first one and on inquiry, you are told that it is going for kshs 15,000 sand from masinga. Since you are with your fundi, in both instances you tell him to go up the trucks and look at the sand. He does that, comes down with sample of sand from trucks and hands them over to you and he tells you to go for the kshs 15,000 truck sand which he tells you is good and it is the one they have been using within your project area and besides kshs 5,000 is a lot of saving on bulk sand purchases. You settle for the cheaper sand. You leave satisfied that you got a good deal after placing exclusive orders for the kshs 15,000 sand any time the sand is required. After finishing the project and the family or tenants move in all is good and the atmosphere is excellent. You have completed a project which you yourself supervised and you can even show it to your friends and relatives, ocassionally saying how tough you are...until one day when you are you are having a meal of githeri special for lunch a telephone call is placed on your cell phone by the occupier of your recently completed premises and they tell you that they have noticed a crack in the sitting room wall running from left to right and another one in the kitchen running vertically at an angle. You call your fundi and the painter and head to the building to repair the cracks which you continue repairing till kingdom come. When you cannot take it any more you start looking for the architect or the structural engineer..Fair enough? Fair enough! Avoid professionals at own peril HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Kaigangio wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Kaigangio wrote:@mugundaman, if: 1. you cannot tell the difference between white, brown or grey sands, 2. you cannot tell the difference between course and fine sand and in which parts of the building they are suitable to be used, 3. you cannot tell the difference between a masonry and RC wall, 4. you cannot decode the information from the structural engineers designs/drawings 5. you cannot tell the difference between the upper and lower strata natural stone 6. you cannot tell the difference between Ceramic, Granite, Travertine, Porcelain, Pebble and Stone Tile and where they are used within the building, 7. you cannot tell the difference between the various types of paints and where they are applied within the building, 8. you cannot tell the different types of MDFs and block boards in the market
then your presence at the construction site will add no value at all to the execution and the quality of the works and you might just end up with a more expensive project than you would have had when the professionals that you are trying to avoid were on board. Kigangio, I know we are eating your goat by cutting you guys out of the picture but the things above are not rocket science, brother. I saw a brilliant thread by kina pablo a few years ago that I have saved to donate to my future grandkids as one of the most valuable threads on cyberspace. It shed clean, dazzling light on the massive conmanship being pulled on the average Joe by the so called "professionals" in the mjengo industry. Sorry but I will not part with even a glittering ndururu more for my project than necessary by hiring those vultures beyond the absolute minimum possible that is necessary by our good laws. @mugundaman...hehe not really. Those things that i have mentioned above are a rocket science. Professionals don't con you in any way. They give you facts and knowledge and charge for it. The people who con you are the foremen, fundis and those other quacks who hang around pretending to be professionals. Before i narrate to you some real life experiences with people like yourself who thought like yourself, I will tell you that any mess in a construction project begins with the owner most of the time...Let me give you a small example: You go out there to buy some sand because you know everything about it and depend largely on the advice of fundis because you do not want to spend an extra shilling on architect or structural engineer's advice. At one yard you find a 20 ton truck filled with sand. On inquiring, you are told that the truckful is going for kshs 25,000 sand from masinga. You leave the yard for another and find a truck with similar tonnage to the first one and on inquiry, you are told that it is going for kshs 15,000 sand from masinga. Since you are with your fundi, in both instances you tell him to go up the trucks and look at the sand. He does that, comes down with sample of sand from trucks and hands them over to you and he tells you to go for the kshs 15,000 truck sand which he tells you is good and it is the one they have been using within your project area and besides kshs 5,000 is a lot of saving on bulk sand purchases. You settle for the cheaper sand. You leave satisfied that you got a good deal after placing exclusive orders for the kshs 15,000 sand any time the sand is required. After finishing the project and the family or tenants move in all is good and the atmosphere is excellent. You have completed a project which you yourself supervised and you can even show it to your friends and relatives, ocassionally saying how tough you are...until one day when you are you are having a meal of githeri special for lunch a telephone call is placed on your cell phone by the occupier of your recently completed premises and they tell you that they have noticed a crack in the sitting room wall running from left to right and another one in the kitchen running vertically at an angle. You call your fundi and the painter and head to the building to repair the cracks which you continue repairing till kingdom come. When you cannot take it any more you start looking for the architect or the structural engineer..Fair enough? Usianze tafasari, you have so many pending real life narration experiences pending on wazua @Mugundaman, If all it takes for Kaigangio to start another real life narration on wazua is to hire a professional architect, please do so.We are willing to crowdfund for it to avoid the suspense See below for background info Swenani wrote:Lolest! wrote:Kaigangio wrote:hardwood wrote:Angelica _ann wrote:Lolest! wrote:hardwood wrote:Friday imeisha and the guy is yet to complete the story since tuesday. Kwani how long does this guy take to complete a single assignment? He must be the laziest employee/employer. kabla ukuje hapa kulikuwa na stori ya NYS. Sidhani iliisha KNH pia. And now Mr. Onyango. Let's hope for the best. Bwahahahahahahahaha.......!!@hardwood, I don't spend the entire day on this site. I am usually a busy man... @Lolest…any event narration that I started right here in wazua will be completed. Usilie bwana kifagio Bwana Kufagiliwa, tutakuwepo kweli ukimaliza hadithi hizi? Au wajukuu wetu watatusomea tuendapo walipoenda mababu zetu? Ngoja ngoja huyaumiza matumbo, walinena wahenga. Sign this online petition to have @Kaigangio finish his oustanding tales on wazua If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,516 Location: nairobi
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MugundaMan wrote:obiero wrote: I don’t think we are saying different things. What I am against is the one who said professionals mean nothing! @mugundaman to be precise
Obiesh, Stop putting words in my mouth, brother. Notice I already used a professional to design the ka-structure and to file for approvals. Notice I also agreed above with the occasional site visit method for the same fellows. So I have nothing against the "pros" doing their limited work. What I refuse to completely do is give the architect the total control he craves, to the point of wanting to clear the bushes on my dime! Iyo nimekataa kata kata. Never. Not happening. That's understandable HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/7/2017 Posts: 186 Location: Nairobi
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Thitifini wrote:A guy where I'm doing my project went the local fundis way without the professionals. Did a beautiful massionate record time.
Problem, bearly three months after completion the staircase and one corner has started sagging. I'm told to correct that it will be a milli or more.
Have arranged the structural engineer to be doing selected visits during the critical stages. Not too much cost by the way. True. 1.There is a difference between professionals and conmen. All professionals are important and play a significant role. 2. For a small scale project you may not really need full time architect/engineer. You can have them do visits instead. 3. The fact that you completed a structure without the input of professionals doesn't make them obsolute. Maybe you were lucky, or fate is yet to catch up with you 4. Some information/knowledge may only be relevant to a specific site. So there is never a solve all pill
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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Where can i find a directory of professional building contractors for a small scale project( a 60 by 40 ft house) in Nairobi and its environs? Is there a website or sorts? Any recommendations? Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,211 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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Swenani wrote: @Mugundaman, If all it takes for Kaigangio to start another real life narration on wazua is to hire a professional architect, please do so.We are willing to crowdfund for it to avoid the suspense
Thanks bro. I need to study Wazoo member histories more. Could end up saving me billions of wasted keystrokes.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,211 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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Fyatu wrote:Where can i find a directory of professional building contractors for a small scale project( a 60 by 40 ft house) in Nairobi and its environs? Is there a website or sorts? Any recommendations?
There's an excellent one here brother. Enjoy.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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MugundaMan wrote:Fyatu wrote:Where can i find a directory of professional building contractors for a small scale project( a 60 by 40 ft house) in Nairobi and its environs? Is there a website or sorts? Any recommendations?
There's an excellent one here brother. Enjoy. Nice one...hahahahaha Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Fyatu wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Fyatu wrote:Where can i find a directory of professional building contractors for a small scale project( a 60 by 40 ft house) in Nairobi and its environs? Is there a website or sorts? Any recommendations?
There's an excellent one here brother. Enjoy. Nice one...hahahahaha If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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Swenani wrote:Kaigangio wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Kaigangio wrote:@mugundaman, if: 1. you cannot tell the difference between white, brown or grey sands, 2. you cannot tell the difference between course and fine sand and in which parts of the building they are suitable to be used, 3. you cannot tell the difference between a masonry and RC wall, 4. you cannot decode the information from the structural engineers designs/drawings 5. you cannot tell the difference between the upper and lower strata natural stone 6. you cannot tell the difference between Ceramic, Granite, Travertine, Porcelain, Pebble and Stone Tile and where they are used within the building, 7. you cannot tell the difference between the various types of paints and where they are applied within the building, 8. you cannot tell the different types of MDFs and block boards in the market
then your presence at the construction site will add no value at all to the execution and the quality of the works and you might just end up with a more expensive project than you would have had when the professionals that you are trying to avoid were on board. Kigangio, I know we are eating your goat by cutting you guys out of the picture but the things above are not rocket science, brother. I saw a brilliant thread by kina pablo a few years ago that I have saved to donate to my future grandkids as one of the most valuable threads on cyberspace. It shed clean, dazzling light on the massive conmanship being pulled on the average Joe by the so called "professionals" in the mjengo industry. Sorry but I will not part with even a glittering ndururu more for my project than necessary by hiring those vultures beyond the absolute minimum possible that is necessary by our good laws. @mugundaman...hehe not really. Those things that i have mentioned above are a rocket science. Professionals don't con you in any way. They give you facts and knowledge and charge for it. The people who con you are the foremen, fundis and those other quacks who hang around pretending to be professionals. Before i narrate to you some real life experiences with people like yourself who thought like yourself, I will tell you that any mess in a construction project begins with the owner most of the time...Let me give you a small example: You go out there to buy some sand because you know everything about it and depend largely on the advice of fundis because you do not want to spend an extra shilling on architect or structural engineer's advice. At one yard you find a 20 ton truck filled with sand. On inquiring, you are told that the truckful is going for kshs 25,000 sand from masinga. You leave the yard for another and find a truck with similar tonnage to the first one and on inquiry, you are told that it is going for kshs 15,000 sand from masinga. Since you are with your fundi, in both instances you tell him to go up the trucks and look at the sand. He does that, comes down with sample of sand from trucks and hands them over to you and he tells you to go for the kshs 15,000 truck sand which he tells you is good and it is the one they have been using within your project area and besides kshs 5,000 is a lot of saving on bulk sand purchases. You settle for the cheaper sand. You leave satisfied that you got a good deal after placing exclusive orders for the kshs 15,000 sand any time the sand is required. After finishing the project and the family or tenants move in all is good and the atmosphere is excellent. You have completed a project which you yourself supervised and you can even show it to your friends and relatives, ocassionally saying how tough you are...until one day when you are you are having a meal of githeri special for lunch a telephone call is placed on your cell phone by the occupier of your recently completed premises and they tell you that they have noticed a crack in the sitting room wall running from left to right and another one in the kitchen running vertically at an angle. You call your fundi and the painter and head to the building to repair the cracks which you continue repairing till kingdom come. When you cannot take it any more you start looking for the architect or the structural engineer..Fair enough? Usianze tafasari, you have so many pending real life narration experiences pending on wazua @Mugundaman, If all it takes for Kaigangio to start another real life narration on wazua is to hire a professional architect, please do so.We are willing to crowdfund for it to avoid the suspense See below for background info Swenani wrote:Lolest! wrote:Kaigangio wrote:hardwood wrote:Angelica _ann wrote:Lolest! wrote:hardwood wrote:Friday imeisha and the guy is yet to complete the story since tuesday. Kwani how long does this guy take to complete a single assignment? He must be the laziest employee/employer. kabla ukuje hapa kulikuwa na stori ya NYS. Sidhani iliisha KNH pia. And now Mr. Onyango. Let's hope for the best. Bwahahahahahahahaha.......!!@hardwood, I don't spend the entire day on this site. I am usually a busy man... @Lolest…any event narration that I started right here in wazua will be completed. Usilie bwana kifagio Bwana Kufagiliwa, tutakuwepo kweli ukimaliza hadithi hizi? Au wajukuu wetu watatusomea tuendapo walipoenda mababu zetu? Ngoja ngoja huyaumiza matumbo, walinena wahenga. Sign this online petition to have @Kaigangio finish his oustanding tales on wazua Even this sandy one has ended in an anti-climax! Is that how Madam feels when she doesn't get there? Unaona Canaan but...
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/9/2010 Posts: 320 Location: kenya
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using professionals is the best way. But the choice is yours. Quacks are all over in any profession and if you have the attitude that professionals are expensive, then one day you will make a real choice/decision and the cost and effect will traumatize you. Ask those guys whose houses collapsed or patients given wrong diagnosis because they were going for cheap. My opinion, we go to school to be better and offer professional support appropriately. Make your choice wisely. Work hard at your job and you can make a living. Work hard on yourself and you can make a fortune.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,516 Location: nairobi
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cyruskulei wrote:using professionals is the best way. But the choice is yours. Quacks are all over in any profession and if you have the attitude that professionals are expensive, then one day you will make a real choice/decision and the cost and effect will traumatize you. Ask those guys whose houses collapsed or patients given wrong diagnosis because they were going for cheap. My opinion, we go to school to be better and offer professional support appropriately. Make your choice wisely. Well said HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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