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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/~coulson/Courses/200/EmbCog_Wilson.pdf Thank you very much for sharing this. Very interesting. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi. Wisdom and worship are the same... and it's the hardest and probably the only meaningful work there can be. I'm saying this because just answering your post requires more than half an hour of preparation! To quote my teachers: Quote:A philosopher had first to state the views of the opponents before formulating his/her own theory. This is known as the prior view or 'Purvapaksa'. Then followed the refutation - 'Khandahana' and last came the conclusion - siddhanta. For me there's an intensive process between the prior view and the refutation which I call the 'probe'. So you can imagine how much work there is to what is supposedly meant to be a simple conversation. If you follow the method then I'm sure we'll need an economic system to sustain such an endeavor... but this may be something for another post or day.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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For simplicity I'll enumerate the conclusions I've derived from your answers:
1. a. Struggle is a given and a consequence of the laws of nature and isn't unique to humans.
b. Struggle doesn't need consciousness
c. Humanity is a result of cosmic intention.
2.a. Plans and order are fiats of nature and its laws
b. Human observation doesn't create order and instead finds and appreciates pre-existing order
c. The order of the universe is random because cognition is situated
3.a. The universe is monistic and not dualistic
b. The body is real though transient and illusory
c. Evolution, has to be re-understood as a collective behavior and effort of various species
d. Humans have metaphysics because the laws of nature imply and dictate metaphysics
4. If the universe is monistic and all things are connected, then perception is reliable and can be used to access the laws of nature.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi. Wisdom and worship are the same... and it's the hardest and probably the only meaningful work there can be. I'm saying this because just answering your post requires more than half an hour of preparation! Quote:Don't trust my words. Trust your feelings. Your greater self will never lie to you while I could. I have spent many years thinking about these things but only realized recently that I always 'knew' the answer. That what I was actually looking for was not an answer but an explanation for why the answer 'is.' Plus an assurance of course that I am not crazy, or if I am, that I am not the only one in the asylum  . To quote my teachers: Quote:A philosopher had first to state the views of the opponents before formulating his/her own theory. This is known as the prior view or 'Purvapaksa'. Then followed the refutation - 'Khandahana' and last came the conclusion - siddhanta. For me there's an intensive process between the prior view and the refutation which I call the 'probe'. So you can imagine how much work there is to what is supposedly meant to be a simple conversation. Quote:
Very good. I am less patient myself. I tend to jump to conclusions and then work back to find proof.
I suspect that soon you are going to arrive at a conclusion so profound that it permits of no antithesis. I can't remember when this happened to me but I know it marked an irreversible turning point in my journey.
The opposite of a small truth is false. The opposite of a great truth is equally true (David Bohm)
If you follow the method then I'm sure we'll need an economic system to sustain such an endeavor... but this may be something for another post or day. Of course. I would even say the work has began. If we could only look up from the intensity of daily struggle, I am sure we would appreciate this. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi. Wisdom and worship are the same... and it's the hardest and probably the only meaningful work there can be. I'm saying this because just answering your post requires more than half an hour of preparation! Quote:Don't trust my words. Trust your feelings. Your greater self will never lie to you while I could. I have spent many years thinking about these things but only realized recently that I always 'knew' the answer. That what I was actually looking for was not an answer but an explanation for why the answer 'is.' Plus an assurance of course that I am not crazy, or if I am, that I am not the only one in the asylum . To quote my teachers: Quote:A philosopher had first to state the views of the opponents before formulating his/her own theory. This is known as the prior view or 'Purvapaksa'. Then followed the refutation - 'Khandahana' and last came the conclusion - siddhanta. For me there's an intensive process between the prior view and the refutation which I call the 'probe'. So you can imagine how much work there is to what is supposedly meant to be a simple conversation. Quote:
Very good. I am less patient myself. I tend to jump to conclusions and then work back to find proof.
I suspect that soon you are going to arrive at a conclusion so profound that it permits of no antithesis. I can't remember when this happened to me but I know it marked an irreversible turning point in my journey.
The opposite of a small truth is false. The opposite of a great truth is equally true (David Bohm)
If you follow the method then I'm sure we'll need an economic system to sustain such an endeavor... but this may be something for another post or day. Of course. I would even say the work has began. If we could only look up from the intensity of daily struggle, I am sure we would appreciate this. It's an ancient tradition, and I agree with it. The light is always there, we only need to build our sense of sight. We know everything, but we need to remember.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:For simplicity I'll enumerate the conclusions I've derived from your answers:
1. a. Struggle is a given and a consequence of the laws of nature and isn't unique to humans.
b. Struggle doesn't need consciousness
Struggle is a given in the reality we have created. It is the handle that helps us to create. Like gravity, the force that tells space how to bend and things how to move, it is not really conscious. It doesn't have to be. The intensity and effect of struggle, however, are subject to our interpretation and choice. If you think of the earth as a school, those who own most struggle are often in an accelerated class. Remember nothing happens without choice.
c. Humanity is a result of cosmic intention.
Humanity is a result (perhaps one of many) of Unity's desire to experience it/her/himself as differentiated. This opportunity is offered very well in our current reality, with its struggle, 'designer' limitations etc.' Such opportunity and the profusion that results does not negate our true nature, however. One.
2.a. Plans and order are fiats of nature and its laws
Or perhaps they are fiats of being human, especially our insatiable desire to find pattern and assign meaning to it. One thing I take as a given is that the creation of order is a cardinal pillar of quantum mechanics. Before observation, everything exists as a wave function - holding the potential to be anything. Observation tells the wave function how to collapse and therefore what to become. Observer is God (or maybe creation is not such a big deal after all)
b. Human observation doesn't create order and instead finds and appreciates pre-existing order
Interesting point. I heard somewhere that Cats do not contemplate the nature of the Universe and yet they live perfectly good lives. So to cats maybe the Universe doesn't have order, because they don't need it to. Who is to say? We, on the other hand, need the Universe to have order and we observe it to be
c. The order of the universe is random because cognition is situated
It is only random because we lack language that can describe something that is everything, everywhere and every-when. If all order is drawn from this 'random' substrate, how can we even call it random? It is actually 'super order.' I find the quantum wave function a better descriptor of this state but I resent its nod to mathematics. I hate maths.
3.a. The universe is monistic and not dualistic
Sorry to belabor this point: but the Universe is an expression of Unity pretending to be differentiated, it can therefore only be monistic. What we see as difference is a temporary illusion. Like a painting on the beach, before the waves come in and wash it away. A beautiful one though, No?.
b. The body is real though transient and illusory
This phase of our evolution is transient and illusory. We need that transience for the space/time framework, on which we hang our transient illusory reality, to function. Otherwise if it wasn't so, the arrow of time, for instance, would disappear and the Universe with it. Or we would go mad, which is perhaps the same thing.
c. Evolution, has to be re-understood as a collective behavior and effort of various species
Please explain this to me
d. Humans have metaphysics because the laws of nature imply and dictate metaphysics
I don't know if the laws of nature demand Metaphysics but I know that humans do. The metaphysical realm and experience are integral parts of Human BEING. Further, metaphysics is a tool for enhanced perception - the reason we sleep is so that we can have a largely unfettered access to this higher state of perception. We can't exist here without metaphysics. Do you know there has never been found a people without religion or at least a belief in something higher than them?)
4. If the universe is monistic and all things are connected, then perception is reliable and can be used to access the laws of nature.
The Universe is monistic and therefore all things are ONE. However our arrival on earth attenuates our tools of perception and that is why we tend to forget Unity. Perhaps it is a good thing. If we remembered everything about our true home, rather than vaguely pining for it, we would not wish to stay here for very long
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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By good fortune, perhaps, google is celebrating Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar for the 'Chandrasekhar limit' which I believe has a lot to do with our conversation here. There's a limit in which a star can't collapse beyond. This implies that there's indeed a limit in which being can't collapse, and if such a limit includes principles like the Pauli exclusion then, the least energetic entities must be cognitive. But that's a matter to be investigated. What I'd like to share is that: 1. Chandrasekhar was from a Brahmin family and 2. He used the method I've outlined above in his work Quote:Chandrasekhar developed a unique style of mastering several fields of physics and astrophysics; consequently, his working life can be divided into distinct periods. He would exhaustively study a specific area, publish several papers in it and then write a book summarizing the major concepts in the field. He would then move on to another field for the next decade and repeat the pattern.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:For simplicity I'll enumerate the conclusions I've derived from your answers:
1. a. Struggle is a given and a consequence of the laws of nature and isn't unique to humans.
b. Struggle doesn't need consciousness
Struggle is a given in the reality we have created. It is the handle that helps us to create. Like gravity, the force that tells space how to bend and things how to move, it is not really conscious. It doesn't have to be. The intensity and effect of struggle, however, are subject to our interpretation and choice. If you think of the earth as a school, those who own most struggle are often in an accelerated class. Remember nothing happens without choice.
c. Humanity is a result of cosmic intention.
Humanity is a result (perhaps one of many) of Unity's desire to experience it/her/himself as differentiated. This opportunity is offered very well in our current reality, with its struggle, 'designer' limitations etc.' Such opportunity and the profusion that results does not negate our true nature, however. One.
2.a. Plans and order are fiats of nature and its laws
Or perhaps they are fiats of being human, especially our insatiable desire to find pattern and assign meaning to it. One thing I take as a given is that the creation of order is a cardinal pillar of quantum mechanics. Before observation, everything exists as a wave function - holding the potential to be anything. Observation tells the wave function how to collapse and therefore what to become. Observer is God (or maybe creation is not such a big deal after all)
b. Human observation doesn't create order and instead finds and appreciates pre-existing order
Interesting point. I heard somewhere that Cats do not contemplate the nature of the Universe and yet they live perfectly good lives. So to cats maybe the Universe doesn't have order, because they don't need it to. Who is to say? We, on the other hand, need the Universe to have order and we observe it to be
c. The order of the universe is random because cognition is situated
It is only random because we lack language that can describe something that is everything, everywhere and every-when. If all order is drawn from this 'random' substrate, how can we even call it random? It is actually 'super order.' I find the quantum wave function a better descriptor of this state but I resent its nod to mathematics. I hate maths.
3.a. The universe is monistic and not dualistic
Sorry to belabor this point: but the Universe is an expression of Unity pretending to be differentiated, it can therefore only be monistic. What we see as difference is a temporary illusion. Like a painting on the beach, before the waves come in and wash it away. A beautiful one though, No?.
b. The body is real though transient and illusory
This phase of our evolution is transient and illusory. We need that transience for the space/time framework, on which we hang our transient illusory reality, to function. Otherwise if it wasn't so, the arrow of time, for instance, would disappear and the Universe with it. Or we would go mad, which is perhaps the same thing.
c. Evolution, has to be re-understood as a collective behavior and effort of various species
Please explain this to me
d. Humans have metaphysics because the laws of nature imply and dictate metaphysics
I don't know if the laws of nature demand Metaphysics but I know that humans do. The metaphysical realm and experience are integral parts of Human BEING. Further, metaphysics is a tool for enhanced perception - the reason we sleep is so that we can have a largely unfettered access to this higher state of perception. We can't exist here without metaphysics. Do you know there has never been found a people without religion or at least a belief in something higher than them?)
4. If the universe is monistic and all things are connected, then perception is reliable and can be used to access the laws of nature.
The Universe is monistic and therefore all things are ONE. However our arrival on earth attenuates our tools of perception and that is why we tend to forget Unity. Perhaps it is a good thing. If we remembered everything about our true home, rather than vaguely pining for it, we would not wish to stay here for very long
Let's take a break for the moment. Meanwhile we now know that there are areas that need to be elaborated in order for us to have an understanding...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:By good fortune, perhaps, google is celebrating Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar for the 'Chandrasekhar limit' which I believe has a lot to do with our conversation here. There's a limit in which a star can't collapse beyond. This implies that there's indeed a limit in which being can't collapse, and if such a limit includes principles like the Pauli exclusion then, the least energetic entities must be cognitive. But that's a matter to be investigated. What I'd like to share is that: 1. Chandrasekhar was from a Brahmin family and 2. He used the method I've outlined above in his work Quote:Chandrasekhar developed a unique style of mastering several fields of physics and astrophysics; consequently, his working life can be divided into distinct periods. He would exhaustively study a specific area, publish several papers in it and then write a book summarizing the major concepts in the field. He would then move on to another field for the next decade and repeat the pattern. I have heard of the Chandraseker limit - although I can't claim to understand the maths. Nevertheless it can be argued (channeling Robert Lanza here) that this limit is simply a mathematical validation of observer created reality. Chandraseker happened to be an especially gifted observer (both meanings of the word) and I am proud to sit on his shoulders. From that exalted vantage point, you note that even this limit is being stretched in strange ways. Star collapse implies matter rapidly accreating in a single, largely inward direction. What about the opposite, star explosion? What would you say about the recent Kilonova? https://www.nytimes.com/...-burns-into-saturn.html
Two Chadraseker stars (Neutron stars) collided and sending matter/energy the other way, proceeded to exceed any observational limits ever seen. Our Universe is strange. It is about to get much stranger as we become comfortable in creating at the far edges of our imagination. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:
Let's take a break for the moment. Meanwhile we now know that there are areas that need to be elaborated in order for us to have an understanding... I agree. A final word, though. When I use the word illusion I don't mean it in a bad way, but rather like in the language of artistic stage performance. Shakespeare said that this world is a stage and we are actors. He was right. The name of the play is "Differentiation - The 3D Earth Experience" and the audience is all of Unity. The conclusion I see is a curtain call, a packed auditorium and a standing ovation as the cast takes a final bow. Well played Humans. Well played. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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