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Glaring Errors in the Draft Constitution
Brewer
#41 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 1:55:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
nanfor1 wrote:
..... what did you expect when the clergy started a political party?.....


That's exactly what I meant! Were they supposed to shut up?
Mpenzi
#42 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 2:08:18 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
One simple question - who will correct the errors and how?
Seeders
#43 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 2:13:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
@alma please. you are killing me. lol. i thought we agreed we forget this matter? i dont mind you posting as male or female. whether you choose to use alma, nanfor1, nancy the insurer or tobiko, that is your (new) constitutional right. i am not a moderator-i just put two and two together. you need to cover your tracks better next time.

nanfor1 wrote:
Seeders wrote:
i prefer low self esteem to gender confusion mr. alma. or is it nancy the insurer?



As for you seeders. It is just slow to not accept that a woman can be sharper than you. Shame on you Shame on you

if you have no further arguments and want to use your position as a wazua moderator to intimidate those against you, you had better come up with better analytical skills.

For your information. My name is Nancy Kimei. I am known to a few wazua members. I have corresponded and met with quite a few and find it totally reprehensible that you can use your position on Wazua to try change the topic.

Now I believe one member who told me that this board is actually tracked by.....

do you as a wazua moderator track your members and sell the info out there? Very poor at analysis though so that make me happy.

masukuma
#44 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 2:22:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@Mpenzi, it has two ways to play out.
1) either the draft passes and we have to do a referendum for typos and illogical statements that say courts will make laws and missing clauses. PS. each matter should have an question of its own.
2) else we reject the draft and amend the thing again in a couple of months we have this draft for the people.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Ngalaka
#45 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 2:39:25 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
1.If you are in the yes camp, and you notice some issues in the proposed constitution, what are you supposed to do?

2.If you are generally ok with the constitution and have reservations over three or two sections, is pointing them out to be considered as betrayal.

What is it with calling people names when they point out real issues. Issues that even the AG agress are unfortunate. Some issues are even the subject of police investigations.

Is our job just to cheer the proposed constitution on, or are we supposed to inerrogate it objectively!
This is a document to guide our lives for a long time to come. Hence it had better be right in all aspects as much as possible.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
alma
#46 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 2:41:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Seeders, while I appreciate the fact that you THINK you are very bright, I will again request that you stop dragging my name in this topic.

Unlike you, this is not a fake persona . Everyone here knows who I am and to be honest with you, you are starting to affect my business.

So though I appreciate a good round of banter, I would rather not have my profile dragged in your issues. Note, I really don't care who you are but you are playing a dangerous game.

If you wish to chat with me or out me with real or imagined profiles, please note that you are not. My name and real identity is very well known so please give me a break.

If you want to deal with Nanfor1, please get her number.

PS. Wazua Admins

I will not go as far as stating that you have created a profile called Seeders. I would advice you to read your privacy policy again.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Seeders
#47 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:00:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
ok alma. i lean more toward the stupid crowd than the bright. i wont drag your name again because i have no interest in messing up your biashara. i am not a moderator. was just making an observation that anyone who is keen enough would. no hard feelings buddy. labda we can laugh about this over some Tusker Baridi later today.
alma
#48 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:13:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
I really appreciate that.

I apologize to Wazua admins if I got it wrong that you are a moderator or part of the admin of this site.

It's just that some of us having been dealing with internet forums for so long that we can smell a moderator a mile away. It is actually easier to spot a moderator with a poor thinking capacity even if they use different personalities on the same post. Maybe it's a habit I should stop.

I will have to decline the offer for a Tusker since I only drink with friends. However, friendship is an acquired taste.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Nandwa
#49 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:15:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 1,049

Some people swore here that the proposed constitution was unacceptable since it repealed the position of PM.

What changed?

The PM himself changed, so did the PMlets!!!!!

The new converts can not understand how others have neglected to make the cross over, so they are all over a sudden taunting them without batting and eye lid!!!!
Just as absolute power corrupts leaders, so does absolute fanaticism blind the people from logic
Seeders
#50 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:23:43 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
i can relate to your paranoia because i am often on the lookout for smart asses on internet forums posting using multiple identities. but i am now glad you are not one. cheers mate.

alma wrote:
I really appreciate that.

I apologize to Wazua admins if I got it wrong that you are a moderator or part of the admin of this site.

It's just that some of us having been dealing with internet forums for so long that we can smell a moderator a mile away. It is actually easier to spot a moderator with a poor thinking capacity even if they use different personalities on the same post. Maybe it's a habit I should stop.

I will have to decline the offer for a Tusker since I only drink with friends. However, friendship is an acquired taste.

alma
#51 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:35:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Applause Applause You know what. I would love to have a tusker with you. You give as good as you get..Applause

I was having a very bad day trying to virus affecting sites online, when I was directed by a client to this post....you can imagine I didn't think it was funny.

However, you just made me laugh big time.Applause hope to see you at the mbuzi.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Ngalaka
#52 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:35:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566

Ok guys steam off.
Back to the issues bedevilling the proposed constitution.

Whats the way out of the quagmire.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
masukuma
#53 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:43:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@Ngalaka, No way out we just have to vote on this silly typo draft. whose content does not make sense.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
sky5
#54 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:00:27 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
How can we go to the referendum to vote for a document with unknown words?

We all know that to correct one word or even add/remove a comma requires a referendum once the constitution is passed. Who will pay for another referendum.

I thought the document was proof-read. Even a spellcheck would have corrected some of the errors. The workman/womanship is unacceptable. The process should be halted by a court order and a good document produced.
B.Timer
#55 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:06:19 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
Mpenzi wrote:
copy and pasted ....


> PRESS STATEMENT
>
>
> UNACCEPTABLE ERRORS IN THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTION OF KENYA
>
> Whereas the Proposed Constitution of Kenya that was launched by the
> AG is written in British English, there are many foreign words that
> litter the document?s text. The text of the Proposed Constitution
> neither highlights nor provides a glossary of the following foreign
> words:
> a. Article 24(2)(b) the word ?fundmental?
> b. Article 92(i) ? the word ?politcal?
> c. Article 95(4)(c) - ?expediture?
> d. Article 115(3) the word ?amendeds?
> e. Article 173(4) the word ?Judicary?
> f. Article 216(4) the word ?comission?
> g. Article 250(8) the word ?indepenedent?
> h. Article 254(3) the word ?commisssion?
> i. Third Schedule ? In the Oath? for a Cabinet Secretary
> the word ?Presidentfor?
>
> Are the following missing clauses deliberate loopholes for later
> mischievous insertions after the Proposed Constitution is ratified,
> especially given that already we have more than one version of the
> document in circulation?
> a. Article 41(3): Sub-clauses (a), (b), (c) and (d) are missing;
> b. Article 103(1)(e)(i) refers to a Clause 2 which is missing;
> c. Fourth Schedule, Part 1: Clause (27) is missing
> d. Sixth Schedule, Part 6: Sub-Clause (27)(2) is missing
>
> Why are there two Sub-Clauses numbered (b) in Clause 234(3)? Which
> one is binding when reference is made to Clause 234(3)(b)?
>
> What is the meaning of Clause 20(3)(a)? Should the words "does not
> give" be replaced with the word "gives" for it not to undermine the
> mandate of the Judiciary? If it is supposed to stop courts from
> creating new rights and freedoms then it does not say so. What it
> does is to undermine the entire Bill of Rights.
>
> Other glaring mistakes in the Proposed Constitution of Kenya include:
> a. Article 163(1) the phrase ?There is established the
> Supreme Court, which shall consists of?
> b. Article 260 the phrase ??county legislation? means a law
> made by a county government or under under authority conferred by a
> county Assembly?;
>
> We are interrogating the Proposed Constitution of Kenya to audit its
> doctrinal soundness and architectural integrity. That audit has
> already unearthed ninety-three problems. We will release the results
> of our audit to the public when done, hopefully, next week.
>
> It is unacceptable for a document that is going to be the foundation
> of the Republic of Kenya to be so recklessly drafted. Hence, mid
> next week, KEJUDE will petition the Honourable Independent
> Constitutional Dispute Resolution Court seeking, among others,:
> (i) An official declaration that the Proposed Constitution of
> Kenya fails the integrity test and must be redrafted to fix all
> errors, including those not highlighted above; or
> (ii) That an addendum of amendments required to fix the errors
> must be introduced at a multiple question referendum; and
> (iii) That the planned single question YES-NO referendum be
> declared a nullity in toto.
> (iv) That no translations of the original English version of the
> document should be undertaken into any other language until the
> meanings of the foreign words is given.
>
> We, therefore, call upon President Mwai Kibaki and Premier Raila
> Odinga, the Committee of Experts and those organisations and
> individuals currently conducting civic education, the Interim
> Independent Electoral Commission preparing for the planned YES-NO
> referendum, and all those involved in any process aimed at imposing
> this faulty Constitution on Kenyans to immediately stop wasting
> public funds and endangering the Republic. To impose the faulty
> Constitution, that will make Kenya practically ungovernable, is a
> frightening act of war on the people of Kenya.
>
> In the meantime, we call on the Hon. Attorney General Sitswila Amos
> Wako, and the entire team that assisted him edit the said document,
> to immediately own up for failing Kenya in such a monumental way.
>
> Finally, we affirm that we want a new Constitution. But we do not
> think that anything that is not the current constitution is what the
> people of Kenya crave. And, even though we recognise that because
> human beings are not perfect their works cannot be perfect either,
> we strongly believe that not being perfect does not stop us from
> pursuing perfection as an ideal. We have an obligation to try to be
> perfect. Hence, when we come across mistakes, we are bound to
> rectify them, not to learn how to live with them.
>
> Signed:
>
> Okiya Omtatah Okoiti - 0722-684-777
>
> Director,
> Kenyans for Justice and Development (KEJUDE) Trust
> Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010



I just confirmed most of the errors highlighted here.
Boy, was the AG and his minders high on some percentage laden beaverage!
serious!
If it were just the spelling mistakes, mmmmm......, may be,- but missing sections that are clearly quoted for refence!
Different section bearing same reference!

We cant let the document go to referundum that way.

Something got to give.

Over to you Mr. President.
Dunia ni msongamano..
B.Timer
#56 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:34:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...osts&t=6498&p=5



My post #84 in the thread above - I argued that one of the problems in this process is that we constrained ourselve so much with strict and unrealistic time frames.

Due to the worry over getting time barred, we rushed things merely to beat time, at the alter of diligence.

Even when we were all agreed that there was need for certain amendnments, we failed to seize the opportunity on account of limited time.

You would think Kenya had a deadline to beat to stay on the globe!

Now see where we are.

Dunia ni msongamano..
kadonye
#57 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 8:38:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Some people are very intolerant!what's so hard in accepting other people's decisiöns?Will nanfor blame politicians when she metes post election violence on masukuma?
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
muganda
#58 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 8:55:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
Late to the party again - shikes. My take:

1. There are several apparent spelling and grammatical errors in the United States Constitution — both the original articles and the Bill of Rights

2. I took some time to go through all the errors in our Proposed Constitution. Three kinds of errors: misspellings, misnumbering, wrong phrases.
Surprisingly the draft I had previously downloaded gave a different picture: The Proposed Constitution by CoE As Approved by National Assembly (1st April 2010)

i. whereas misspellings occur, only one character is misplaced in almost all cases
ii. all cases missing articles and clauses are actually mistakes in the multilevel numbering in print/newspaper copy. They do not occur in the PDF file
iii. of the two cases of 'glaring' errors in phrase, PDF is correct for the first issue and writer wrongly interpreted second issue.


So I think it's very positive that constitution is analyzed and discussed at this level. And you can't blame NO camp for taking advantage - it's only human.

What is damaging though is over 95% of those who react to the errors will not have read the 211 pages with over 49,700 words - myself included!

And thus it remains, as with most things human, form over substance Sad
B.Timer
#59 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:20:47 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
@Muganda,

I hear you buddy.
I must say I appreaciate your level-headedness and push for the greater good for Kenya.
Kudos for that.

Having said that, I hazard that you may agree with me that;

- Kenyans will be going to the Referundum to vote on the proposed constitution as PUBLISHED by the AG and not the PDF file copy or any other for that matter.

-Some of the errors leave us at loss when it comes to quoting and/or invoking those articles, that are hopelessly mixed up.

- It is significant when the constitution itself, refers us to an article within itself, which article is absent/non-existent. Such a constitution is 'hanging', incomplete and confusing.

- Interpretation of the constitution with such errors, even by the most well intentioned legal mind, becomes something of a guess work - law is supposed to leave no doubt as to its meaning.

Forget the mispelling , just re-look at the areas quoted below (in blue).

People demanding that these anomalies be addressed in a manner that builds integrity for the document, are not necessarily NOists, neither is it a problem when people in NO point out mistakes that ought to be corrected.
Infact those who draw the contry's attention to such problems are friends of Kenya, real Patriots.

The guy who tells you that you fly is open is a friend indeed, as opposed to the guy you sees it, giggles, and hopes that you meet your Mother inlaw that way.



a. Article 41(3): Sub-clauses (a), (b), (c) and (d) are missing;
> b. Article 103(1)(e)(i) refers to a Clause 2 which is missing;
> c. Fourth Schedule, Part 1: Clause (27) is missing
> d. Sixth Schedule, Part 6: Sub-Clause (27)(2) is missing
>
> Why are there two Sub-Clauses numbered (b) in Clause 234(3)? Which
> one is binding when reference is made to Clause 234(3)(b)?
>
> What is the meaning of Clause 20(3)(a)? Should the words "does not
> give" be replaced with the word "gives" for it not to undermine the
> mandate of the Judiciary? If it is supposed to stop courts from
> creating new rights and freedoms then it does not say so. What it
> does is to undermine the entire Bill of Rights.



My take then is ;-

That we need to "stop press", reflect and restrategise. Only then shall we move on, with confidence.
While at it, we may also seize the opportunity to address the LEGITIMATE issues raised earlier by various groups ( and I mean only the legitimate concerns).
Infact this may be a godsend opportunity for us to make the proces even more inclusive.
Talk of blessing in disguise.
Dunia ni msongamano..
muganda
#60 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:39:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
@B.Timer, good stuff - humbled. And I agree anyone who keenly points out these errors is doing the right thing - intentions vary though, as does their gravity.

A body of laws (even when correct) just remains that, until it is tested and interpreted. The interpretation of the judiciary, when there's any reason for ambiguity, always includes whether intention can be discerned.


Now on to the issues:
MISNUMBERINGS:
Article 41: Wrong to say clauses are missing. Mistake was instead of numbering as (a)/(b), they were numbered as (e)/(f)

Article 103: Refers to clause 2 which is missing. Mistake was instead of numbering following clause (2), it was numbered as (3), as all drafts until the last one shows

4th Sch 27: This one has been missing all along. As schedule describes function of National Government, new word cannot be added.

6th Sch 27(2): Refers to clause (2) which is missing. Misnumbering of following clauses (3) (4), instead of (2) (3) only in the last draft again.


PHRASES:
Article 234: Last clause numbered (b) in error. All previous drafts and positioning shows it should be (d)

Article 20: (3) In applying a provision of the Bill of Rights, a court shall—
(a) develop the law to the extent that it does not give effect to a right or fundamental freedom;
My understanding is the court cannot alter/amend/reduce (give effect) the right or freedom in its interpretation - the constitution is sacrosant.



I was surprised to see we required assistance of Federal Republic of Germany to print constitution. Since these errors were introduced in the last draft, it is not unrealistic to expect government to alter numbering only, and only numbering to reflect COE draft. Even if this wasn't done, I believe it is possible to discern the intention.

One last point, even if we Stop-Press as suggested, there will still be clerical errors and disagreements over a new draft - that's just life.
The world is conquered by those who solider on, when all say nay, against all odds, to the promised land!
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