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I am voting No
Wendz
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:30:30 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
famooz wrote:
Could someone please help me understand,in simple terms,the main radical changes that the proposed constitution will bring to the table? Does it mark a complete departure from the old way of doing things to a new dawn? If not,then this is just hot air.


@famooz

Si you have been conferred the powers to read? Why do you want someone to give you their opinion? it may have immediate effects to their lives which may be different from yours... Make your own choice...

http://www.coekenya.go.k...nstitution_of_kenya.pdf
nanfor1
#22 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:32:16 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
sky5

correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just say that the present constitution is GOOD?

Next time you try and trivialise the death of people in 1992, 1997, 2002 please say a prayer.

You tell me one Good thing you know in the current constitution. This is the very constitution where men could not talk in pubs about their leaders lest they are taken to Nyayo House. Do you know there are people in our country who are still scared of that building?


Please do not tell me that you think that the current constitution is OK. The very constitution that allowed someone to be sworn in at night.

The vote is very clear.

If you vote Yes, you reject the current constitution.
If you vote No, you accept the current constitution.

I for one will not accept a constitution that allows policemen to shoot people in the back. I will will accept a constitution that says that women cannot inherit property. I will not accept a constitution that says, that even as I am typing this, people who stole a chicken will hang while people who can steal billions of shillings can run to be president.
Hata wakizima taa
Brewer
#23 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:41:09 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
Wendz, you listened to a lawyer say that? Ouch! The clause on abortion says that abortion is not permitted except where:
a) a trained health provisional forms the opinion that there is need for emergency treatment or life or health of the mother is in danger, or
b)as may be permitted by any other written law.
The a) part above is loaded with heavy exceptions that make the general statement "abortion is not permitted" almost meaningless. And as if that was not enough, the b) part states that more exceptions are coming. It is almost laughable except that we are dealing with such a serious issue that someone, not least a lawyer, can then say without qualification that 'abortion is not permitted'.

Nanfor1 you throw wild and wide blows!
mukiha
#24 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:45:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Honestly? I don't give a hoot about abortion! Whether it is allowed or not will not affect the way I vote.

Same goes for the Kadhi Court. have it or not have it makes no difference to me.

Anyone else in my boat?
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
masukuma
#25 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:46:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
its all about what we find important! it is not about the numeric number of things right vs wrong.
its a mug of tea, full of hot steamy tea. well brewed and just the right amount of sugar.
Dependant on what you value, some of the issues raised may look to you as remnants of tea leaves that you can drink and sieve the foreign things using your mouth to spit out later or may be something very unbearable such as a big blue pit-latrine fly that you will ask the attendant to take back the cup and give you something better.
its all about values.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tuvok
#26 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:49:11 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/2/2007
Posts: 536
famooz wrote:
Could someone please help me understand,in simple terms,the main radical changes that the proposed constitution will bring to the table? Does it mark a complete departure from the old way of doing things to a new dawn? If not,then this is just hot air.


I've a feeling too that unless the WAY of doing things changes, nothing will change new constitution or not.

While we are at it, there's 3 months to the referendum. Can we talk about other things in the meantime, at least until July.
mozenrat
#27 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:49:37 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/18/2008
Posts: 796
@Wendz..

Some fundamental issues...

Right to life - guaranteed in the new constitution..
Right to life even for foetuses is guaranteed
EXCEPT
in where the life or health of the mother is in danger.

That is the scenario just like in the old one...
Right to life GUARANTEED except if a judge convicts you of a capital offense...

My only problem is this use of 'trained health professional'... In this Kenya?? I have a cousin who attended a 2 months 'medical certificate' and I sent my househelp for a '1 week course' with St. Johns ambulance. Are these not trained health professionals. All the CoE had to do was defined who a trained health professional is just like they did with judicial officers
AmHere
#28 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:49:39 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
We might be overly hyping this document regardless of its merits or demerits. Kenya's problem is the law yes but much more than that is a culture of failing to respect the law, in other words impunity. A new constitution cannot change that though it is a step in the right direction. Realistic expectations would help.
nanfor1
#29 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:52:21 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
@Brewer

Let us take for the sake of argument that you are right. You are lying though but its just an argument.

so we vote No because of what you think.

We stay with the current katiba.

Do you have the penal code with you. What does it say about abortion? Do you know what it says are were you told by your clergy? what is the difference between the current penal code and the proposed constitution? Do you even have a clue?

So what you want us to do, is to vote No. We keep the current constitution, with the present penal code.

Can you please tell us exactly how many babies you will have saved?

I want us to talk numbers here. Muache imaginations.

If kenya votes no solely because of your serious misinterpretation of the clause, exactly how many babies will you have saved?

I will tell you that if I vote Yes, I will forever stop poor people being jailed with flimsy cases, because they cannot afford a lawyer.

it is crunch time people. It is time for numbers now. Stop lying to Kenyans and tell the truth as you are commanded by your religion. Hii uongo mtaacha. You are lying to Kenyans. The question is, what is your real agenda?
Hata wakizima taa
chepkel
#30 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:54:22 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
Hii story ya abortion ni kali sana. I believe 80% of people saying No to abortion have probably done it, know someone who has done it (and probably supported them) or at least thought of doing it at some point in their lives. i know several who have done it. Seriously, we like to shout righteousness at the top of our voices lakini kwa roho zetu vitu mbaya zinachemka.

Anyway, whether this clause is there or not abortions will happen. I do not believe the number of abortions will increase because of this clause.

People argue that medial practitioners will abuse this law. Well, we have the police force and a medical body that can place preventive measures or act quickly to catch these crooks. This clause has been put there with good intentions and it should be allowed to stay.

Medical and police officers can step up their game. Crack down on illegal clinics, do undercover work, and thoroughly investigate mpaka people will fear these things.

We should try to help our girls have knowledge on contraceptives and reproductive health to avoid unwanted pregnancies because seriously there are very many methods which can be used at affordable rates that can protect people from pregnancy. Tuko 21st century zile myth za ati "if you have sex while standing you will not get pregnant ama if you quickly take a bath after sex you will avoid pregnancy" must not make arounds and you will be suprised at the things girls believe !!


So voting No because of the Abortion clause is unwise. Please find another reason to vote No.
Pastor M
#31 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:07:57 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/18/2009
Posts: 303
The thread's title is "I am Voting No",
so if you are voting yes start another thread call it "I am Voting Yes".

Allow us to discuss among ourselves right now we are busy d'oh! reading the draft hoping its the correct draft we might hear there are others released by the AG.

Can we have more like what Cardinal Applause Applause posted.
and less of Shame on you Shame on you Wendz,chepkel,nanfor in this thread please
masukuma
#32 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:09:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@chepkel, its our reason. Not yours. we don't want to rubber stamp an illegality.
someone can choose a flimsy reason, such as - i don't like Nzamba Kitonga and will not certify any of his work. he has a democratic right to do that.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
kingfisher
#33 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:15:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/9/2008
Posts: 2,824
mimi iko kwa NO camp

how on earth can you have a constitution allowing everyone the right to go on strike, even the disciplined forces??
When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.
Surealligator
#34 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:19:14 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 709
Location: Velayat-e Faryab
Brewer wrote:
Wendz, you listened to a lawyer say that? Ouch! The clause on abortion says that abortion is not permitted except where:
a) a trained health provisional forms the opinion that there is need for emergency treatment or life or health of the mother is in danger, or
b)as may be permitted by any other written law.
The a) part above is loaded with heavy exceptions that make the general statement "abortion is not permitted" almost meaningless. And as if that was not enough, the b) part states that more exceptions are coming. It is almost laughable except that we are dealing with such a serious issue that someone, not least a lawyer, can then say without qualification that 'abortion is not permitted'.

Nanfor1 you throw wild and wide blows!


This is a letter doing the rounds and has made me think again.

Katiba Watch Team
STOP PRESS: Code language for permitting abortionists to decide “Right to Life.”
What started as a straightforward and noble protection of the right to life—a constitutional ban on abortion except where medically necessary to save a woman’s life—has been turned completely on its head.
In the latest version rewritten by the “Committee of Experts” (CoE), the “right to life” has been slyly transformed into a constitutional right to abortion. Comparing the versions of earlier drafts shows what has happened. The original Harmonised Draft (November 2009) and the Revised Harmonised Draft (January 2010) submitted by the CoE to the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC), both protected the “Right to Life.” Indeed, it is the first freedom listed in the Bill of Rights: “Every person has the right to life.”
Under the Constitution of Kenya Review Act of 2008, the CoE was required to submit the draft to the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) for its “deliberation and consensus building on the contentious issues.” This occurred at January’s important meeting at Naivasha. The PSC enhanced and clarified the “Right to Life” by adding that “The life of a person begins at conception” and specifically prohibiting abortion except to save the mother’s life: “Abortion is not permitted unless in the opinion of a registered medical practitioner, the life of the mother is in danger.”This reflected a consensus that Kenya’s constitution should protect life and prohibit abortion.
At this point, the Constitution of Kenya Review Act of 2008 directed the CoE to “revise the draft Constitution taking into account the achieved consensus” and submit the draft to the PSC, which would then lay it before Parliament. The CoE did not do this. It did not revise the draft to reflect “the achieved consensus” at Naivasha. On the contrary, the CoE hijacked the “Right to Life” entirely, turning it instead into a right to abortion.
Article 26(4) now provides: “Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained health professional, there is a need for emergency treatment, or the life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law.”This provision completely negates the right to life in four ways.
1. First, it changes the decision-maker from a “registered medical practitioner” to any “trained health professional.” Thus, it need not be a doctor or nurse who makes the medical judgment that an abortion is necessary; it can be any professional “trained” in “health,” whether certified or not. This is code language for permitting abortionists to decide whether an abortion should be permitted.
2. Second, the PSC consensus at Naivasha only permitted abortion when “the life of the mother is in danger.” The CoE re-wrote this to permit abortion when “the life or health” of the mother is in danger. What does “health” include? How broad is this exception? Unfortunately, America provides a bad example. The phrase “health of the mother” is a term-of-art in American constitutional law concerning abortion. It means that the mother may choose abortion for any physical, emotional, psychological, social, financial, or “family” reason she chooses. The effect, in America, is to permit abortion for any reason, throughout all nine months of pregnancy, as a matter of constitutional right. This language is not in the U.S. Constitution, but comes from the U.S. Supreme Court’s infamous decision in the case of Roe v. Wade, which created an unlimited right to abortion in America by using a trick definition of “health” in a companion decision, Doe v. Bolton. But the “health of the mother” language is in the proposed Constitution of Kenya. It is therefore very likely that this language may be interpreted by courts and government officials in Kenya as creating a right to abortion for any reason throughout pregnancy, after the fashion of America.
3. Third, the CoE’s new version explicitly provides that abortion may be made legal if “permitted by any other written law.” In other words, the constitutional right to life may be entirely nullified, simply by passing a new law, without changing the constitution. This means that the right to life is really no constitutional right at all.
4. Fourth, the exception for “emergency treatment” means something more than protecting the life or health of the mother. Otherwise, this language would have no effect. The CoE added this language. To what does “emergency treatment” refer, if not protecting life or health? A likely answer is that “emergency treatment” is code language for “emergency contraception” that works by producing an early abortion after conception has occurred.
There is one more provision of the current draft that further reinforces the right to abortion. Under Article 43 of the CoE’s latest version, “every person” has the constitutional right to “health care services, including reproductive health care.” In America, the phrase “reproductive health care” is polite language for abortion. In America, one of the debates over health care is whether abortion is truly “health care.” “Reproductive health care” is the code term that is used when abortion is what is meant.
Because Article 43 of the current draft appears to provide an affirmative right to “reproductive health” services, this language probably provides a social-welfare entitlement to publicly-provided or publicly-funded abortions.
In short, the current draft provides a constitutional right to abortion, for any reason, throughout all nine months of pregnancy, paid for by all Kenyans. These are dramatic changes from the earlier versions of the proposed constitution. Nothing like this was in any of the earlier drafts.
Article 26 is a completely new invention. It completely undermines the right to life. Indeed, it produces its opposite. It creates a right to abortion.
Go overdrive in purchasing the goods when there's blood on the streets, expecially if the blood is your own
nanfor1
#35 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:23:01 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
@King now that is something to consider. At last something that people can argue about.

@Pastor is that you can't deal with facts. You guys have run rough shod on this forum with blatant lies and misinformation. When we call you out, you start quoting another bible verse.

Can you guys please tell me exactly what you are doing right now to save the 300 plus abortions going on today in Kenya.

Let us not talk about the future. Let us talk about NOW.

Since you want us to vote no because of abortion. Does it mean that right now as we speak, the current constitution has STOPPED abortions?

Again I reiterate. There is no abortion in the proposed constitution, unless you have not read it and have been listening to a bunch of right wing christians with an agenda they have yet to tell us.

It will be a tragedy to vote no for an excuse as this.

Tell us right now, what is your clergy doing to arrest the doctors who as we are on wazua are performing another abortion. If you have done nothing about it since Kenya was independent, then let us move on to a new one that will allow us to have a police force that is well paid and with enough mettle to deal with these issues.
Hata wakizima taa
Tebes
#36 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:27:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
@Mukiha
Me too. Abortion will not affect my vote as I believe that is a moral issue. Kadhi's courts are both in the current and proposed constitution.

@Masukuma,
If you dont want to rubber stamp an illegallity as you say, you can choose to abstain. Voting is voluntary. Again if you vote no, we go back to the old constitution that promoted impunity.
"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
Mpenzi
#37 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:30:43 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
@Pastor M
This is not an exclusive ghetto of Naysayers. We must encourage discussion between the Yes and No groups.
Brewer
#38 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:37:04 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
nanfor1 wrote:
.....

Again I reiterate. There is no abortion in the proposed constitution,......


Without butting an eyelid!
Tebes
#39 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:40:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
@King..
The proposed draft limits application of rights or fundamental freedoms, in a number of provisions which include
a)privacy,
b)freedom of association,
c)assembly, demonstration, picketing or petition,
d)labour relations
e)economic and social rights

to persons serving in the Kenya Defence force or National Police Service.

Please read Article 24(5)
"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
Soko tele
#40 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:45:02 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/19/2008
Posts: 60
@Nanforl .........Kindly google the meaning of " reproductive health care" and post that defination here.

You say we should not bother about abortion because its still happening, on the same breathe can we give up on corruption because nothing happens and there are laws about it.

Or should we not jail someone for killing since we did not stop them from killing in the first place.

Article 43 (1)is a pseudo name for abortion on demand

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