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Legal Question-Succession
TSi
#1 Posted : Friday, January 13, 2017 3:34:22 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Scenario:An old mzee & his wife die leaving behind 10 children and an estate worth approx 100M. Now internal wars develop and lack of trust between the siblings. Though no physical fights its kind of cold war situation some not talking to others. After like 5 years of this stalemate, a decline in fortunes of the estate and the passing of 2 siblings the family agrees to meet monthly to try and come up with a property division formula. The mzee's word was that all his children are equal whether male/female or old/young. Using mediators the family has been meeting but for almost an year now there is one guy who has consistently failed to show up for meetings. The properties to be divided are of different value and in different places. However the siblings have used approximation to value their properties. In some properties 2 ppl will have to share etc. By law once they have agreed on how to share the estate they are supposed to present a list to court showing the same, so that they can be give a confirmation letter of grant.
Big Question: How do they handle this guy who always snubs meetings if he fails to show up in court?
What do they do if he shows up to court and says he does not agree with the other 9 families?
sparkly
#2 Posted : Friday, January 13, 2017 4:43:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
TSi wrote:
Scenario:An old mzee & his wife die leaving behind 10 children and an estate worth approx 100M. Now internal wars develop and lack of trust between the siblings. Though no physical fights its kind of cold war situation some not talking to others. After like 5 years of this stalemate, a decline in fortunes of the estate and the passing of 2 siblings the family agrees to meet monthly to try and come up with a property division formula. The mzee's word was that all his children are equal whether male/female or old/young. Using mediators the family has been meeting but for almost an year now there is one guy who has consistently failed to show up for meetings. The properties to be divided are of different value and in different places. However the siblings have used approximation to value their properties. In some properties 2 ppl will have to share etc. By law once they have agreed on how to share the estate they are supposed to present a list to court showing the same, so that they can be give a confirmation letter of grant.
Big Question: How do they handle this guy who always snubs meetings if he fails to show up in court?
What do they do if he shows up to court and says he does not agree with the other 9 families?


Apewe Haki yaki.

So long as the division is fair, the court will uphold.
Life is short. Live passionately.
maka
#3 Posted : Friday, January 13, 2017 5:36:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
TSi wrote:
Scenario:An old mzee & his wife die leaving behind 10 children and an estate worth approx 100M. Now internal wars develop and lack of trust between the siblings. Though no physical fights its kind of cold war situation some not talking to others. After like 5 years of this stalemate, a decline in fortunes of the estate and the passing of 2 siblings the family agrees to meet monthly to try and come up with a property division formula. The mzee's word was that all his children are equal whether male/female or old/young. Using mediators the family has been meeting but for almost an year now there is one guy who has consistently failed to show up for meetings. The properties to be divided are of different value and in different places. However the siblings have used approximation to value their properties. In some properties 2 ppl will have to share etc. By law once they have agreed on how to share the estate they are supposed to present a list to court showing the same, so that they can be give a confirmation letter of grant.
Big Question: How do they handle this guy who always snubs meetings if he fails to show up in court?
What do they do if he shows up to court and says he does not agree with the other 9 families?


If division is equal among all of them as per mzee's wishes,should there be an issue?
Schedule of distribution of property should be signed by all parties and is filed in court prior to confirmation of grant.
If they cannot get him to sign,that means that there is no agreeement in which case you apply to court to have it distribute the property.

Did he sign the petition in the first place?

How did they proceed to confirmation stage in his absence?Being a child of the deceased,that makes him person of equal priority with the other children who I believe signed the affidavits authorizing the petitioner to apply for the grant.
possunt quia posse videntur
alma1
#4 Posted : Friday, January 13, 2017 6:21:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
I hope you pay me for this advise.

Forget about what has passed and do it like this.

Set up a company...Ok I know it unafrican or something but setup a company with all the property included in the company.

Set it up with equal shares or shares that you have agreed to start with.

Of course running something like this takes time and effort. Some fellows shan't work...Just come to ask for their money back.

Especially when it fails, they'll be the first ones to post on facebook how you scammed them.

So and this is not only for a situation like the above but also for startups.

Use this formula...It works wonders.

I personally I'm getting rid of all my projects where the partners aren't willing to go with it.

http://slicingpie.com/

Family can be stressful so quickly form a company setup as per the wishes of the deceased. Then run it in the pie model. That's my humble opinion. It's free and lawyers shall take 30% of that 100 million.
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

Kusadikika
#5 Posted : Friday, January 13, 2017 7:14:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
If you ever want to avoid any legal trouble or win any legal case all you need is evidence and a paper trail. This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

In this case every time a meeting is called for between all the family members let the meeting be scheduled with a letter that is sent to all the members by a verifiable way. If by postal mail let it be by registered mail. If it is by email or sms find a way of filing the same so that you have evidence that everyone was invited.

On the day of the meeting make sure the meeting and all meetings have minutes written down. These include attendance and everything that was discussed. Record everything. If during the attendance the absence of the individual was discussed make sure it is recorded. Now that you have 9 people at the meeting each of them can try and reach out to the missing person to let them know that the meeting has started and find out if they are on the way. All this should be recorded in the minutes including whatever excuses were given for not attending. Now here you have two things, you have the minutes which record everything and also 9 witnesses to attempts to try to reach out to the missing person.

Make sure all deliberations are fair and the person is given his rightful share.

Most important keep all records. Make sure the person is always invited to all meetings and all minutes of all the meetings are sent to him.

You can shout all you want in court but nothing beats good records and witnesses.
aemathenge
#6 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 11:48:04 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
alma1 wrote:
I hope you pay me for this advise.

Forget about what has passed and do it like this.

Set up a company...Ok I know it unafrican or something but setup a company with all the property included in the company.

Set it up with equal shares or shares that you have agreed to start with.

Of course running something like this takes time and effort. Some fellows shan't work...Just come to ask for their money back.

Especially when it fails, they'll be the first ones to post on facebook how you scammed them.

So and this is not only for a situation like the above but also for startups.

Use this formula...It works wonders.

I personally I'm getting rid of all my projects where the partners aren't willing to go with it.

http://slicingpie.com/

Family can be stressful so quickly form a company setup as per the wishes of the deceased. Then run it in the pie model. That's my humble opinion. It's free and lawyers shall take 30% of that 100 million.

Copy that.
TSi
#7 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2017 3:15:09 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Thank you all for the free advice. @Alma & aemathenge they tried the company way but the papers to register the company were torn up by the eldest sibling who later passed. Basically they are just tired of each other.
@Maka I am curious, how expensive is it if they "ask the court to distribute the property" and how long would it take
@Kusadikika Meeting invites are through sms and minutes are always taken but due to the heated debates in these meetings most of the times there are no resolutions to be noted down. Its 80% name calling, mara sijui wewe ndo ulichukua hii, mara wewe ulisema ile etc
Kusadikika
#8 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2017 5:51:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
TSi wrote:
Thank you all for the free advice. @Alma & aemathenge they tried the company way but the papers to register the company were torn up by the eldest sibling who later passed. Basically they are just tired of each other.
@Maka I am curious, how expensive is it if they "ask the court to distribute the property" and how long would it take
@Kusadikika Meeting invites are through sms and minutes are always taken but due to the heated debates in these meetings most of the times there are no resolutions to be noted down. Its 80% name calling, mara sijui wewe ndo ulichukua hii, mara wewe ulisema ile etc


Please, please, please if you all want peace do everything to come to resolution. You may need a third party. Go to the most Kichwa Ngumu member and get them involved in choosing a mediator.

Make everyone understand that there are only two choices about who gets the property. The family members or lawyers. By throwing hands and words at each other everyone is saying that they want lawyers to inherit the property. Sit down and reason together.
TSi
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:20:48 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Kusadikika wrote:
TSi wrote:
Thank you all for the free advice. @Alma & aemathenge they tried the company way but the papers to register the company were torn up by the eldest sibling who later passed. Basically they are just tired of each other.
@Maka I am curious, how expensive is it if they "ask the court to distribute the property" and how long would it take
@Kusadikika Meeting invites are through sms and minutes are always taken but due to the heated debates in these meetings most of the times there are no resolutions to be noted down. Its 80% name calling, mara sijui wewe ndo ulichukua hii, mara wewe ulisema ile etc


Please, please, please if you all want peace do everything to come to resolution. You may need a third party. Go to the most Kichwa Ngumu member and get them involved in choosing a mediator.

Make everyone understand that there are only two choices about who gets the property. The family members or lawyers. By throwing hands and words at each other everyone is saying that they want lawyers to inherit the property. Sit down and reason together.


Believe me they have tried. This mizozo has made some family members abandon family properties they used to do business in. Other potential land has been left unattended; basically kunamea tu manyasi. Problem is the family kind of is split into 2. The group that collects rent from the few mabati houses that their parents had put up is content because they "eat" without sharing and they are the major absentees during meetings. The others are full of machungu coz of this but the worst is that one guy who never attends meetings. They are stuck because of him
TSi
#10 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 11:44:26 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Another quick question:
Scenario: You own a plot that is disputed due to double allocation. It happens the other "owner" has built 3 double roomed stone houses for rent on one side of the plot and has tenants living there. You "Real owner" come & fence the plot and put a gate. You also go ahead and put up 3 double room stone houses for rent. You also put building materials on the space that is left of the plot. You then let out the units. One night thugs are sent to the property by the "other owner" and chase away your tenants and remove doors and windows & take them aways. All this while there is a court case that has been ongoing albeit very very slowly (more than 13yrs).
Question:
1. Do you rebuild?
2. If you rebuild how do you get to inspire the confidence of the tenants
3.Do you chase away the other guy's tenants
4. If so what technique do you use to chase them since they are aware of the mzozo and technically they are not your tenants.
Swenani
#11 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 11:54:45 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
TSi wrote:
Another quick question:
Scenario: You own a plot that is disputed due to double allocation. It happens the other "owner" has built 3 double roomed stone houses for rent on one side of the plot and has tenants living there. You "Real owner" come & fence the plot and put a gate. You also go ahead and put up 3 double room stone houses for rent. You also put building materials on the space that is left of the plot. You then let out the units. One night thugs are sent to the property by the "other owner" and chase away your tenants and remove doors and windows & take them aways. All this while there is a court case that has been ongoing albeit very very slowly (more than 13yrs).
Question:
1. Do you rebuild?
2. If you rebuild how do you get to inspire the confidence of the tenants
3.Do you chase away the other guy's tenants
4. If so what technique do you use to chase them since they are aware of the mzozo and technically they are not your tenants.


You just do what the other "owner" did to you.....see highlighted above or contact Mawinder
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Angelica _ann
#12 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 1:38:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
Swenani wrote:
TSi wrote:
Another quick question:
Scenario: You own a plot that is disputed due to double allocation. It happens the other "owner" has built 3 double roomed stone houses for rent on one side of the plot and has tenants living there. You "Real owner" come & fence the plot and put a gate. You also go ahead and put up 3 double room stone houses for rent. You also put building materials on the space that is left of the plot. You then let out the units. One night thugs are sent to the property by the "other owner" and chase away your tenants and remove doors and windows & take them aways. All this while there is a court case that has been ongoing albeit very very slowly (more than 13yrs).
Question:
1. Do you rebuild?
2. If you rebuild how do you get to inspire the confidence of the tenants
3.Do you chase away the other guy's tenants
4. If so what technique do you use to chase them since they are aware of the mzozo and technically they are not your tenants.


You just do what the other "owner" did to you.....see highlighted above or contact Mawinder

You deliver (not) clean water bowsers at night d'oh! smile smile smile
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
Jibabe
#13 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 2:41:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/25/2009
Posts: 41
This trick I would recommend if you have proof and evidence to file application before court for contempt. That’s obviously if you had as the matter proceeds had filed for a status quo prayer before the court. Doing 'what the other owner did' is a jungle mentality that should be shunned.Then current rent if any being collected to be deposited in court pending determination of the matter.Then they will come to talk for sure...
TSi
#14 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 3:31:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Jibabe wrote:
This trick I would recommend if you have proof and evidence to file application before court for contempt. That’s obviously if you had as the matter proceeds had filed for a status quo prayer before the court. Doing 'what the other owner did' is a jungle mentality that should be shunned.Then current rent if any being collected to be deposited in court pending determination of the matter.Then they will come to talk for sure...


@Jibabe please tell me more, I like that idea better. What does "the real owner" have to do to make the court compel "the other owner"s tenants to pay rent to the court account. As things stand "the other owner" has been collecting rent from "the real owner" plot for the last 13 yrs, while "the real owner" units are vacant. The reason the fake owner got guts to remove the doors was coz he got some court order to evict; which was quickly appealed in court by the real owner & upheld.
@Swenani & A-ann real owner is not ready for a fight yet.
Angelica _ann
#15 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 4:29:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
TSi wrote:
Jibabe wrote:
This trick I would recommend if you have proof and evidence to file application before court for contempt. That’s obviously if you had as the matter proceeds had filed for a status quo prayer before the court. Doing 'what the other owner did' is a jungle mentality that should be shunned.Then current rent if any being collected to be deposited in court pending determination of the matter.Then they will come to talk for sure...


@Jibabe please tell me more, I like that idea better. What does "the real owner" have to do to make the court compel "the other owner"s tenants to pay rent to the court account. As things stand "the other owner" has been collecting rent from "the real owner" plot for the last 13 yrs, while "the real owner" units are vacant. The reason the fake owner got guts to remove the doors was coz he got some court order to evict; which was quickly appealed in court by the real owner & upheld.
@Swenani & A-ann real owner is not ready for a fight yet.

13 years is such a long time ......... @maka come and advice!!!!!!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
2012
#16 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 4:39:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
Another question;

An old man passes on, he has a written will leaving all his property to his wife and kids.
Later, some kids surface with their mother and the 'Abby' in this case are all over 21 years. Do they have any claim? Can the mother sue for compensation for neglect or something?

BBI will solve it
:)
Jibabe
#17 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 9:51:14 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/25/2009
Posts: 41
@TSi I reckon you have an advocate already.Youll need to move the court under certificate of urgency n pray that situation as at time litigation started he deteriorated n that as property is attracting rent for court to appoint an agent to collect n deposit n hold me net as a trustee in account where the three parties are signatories n to be remitting a status of account during pendency of case.This will bring all parties to talking table
Jibabe
#18 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2017 10:02:35 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/25/2009
Posts: 41
@Elder that's tricky one matters of inheritance may be proved by facts or aspects of representations 'so called passing off' that can represent circumstantial evidence n getting of issues.unfortunately the mother stands little chance but children need to proof parentage through DNA for example but now matching would be a challenge.Chances of success for these johnny come significantly limited in scenario as above.
Mike Ock
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:59:35 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 682
Kusadikika wrote:
If you ever want to avoid any legal trouble or win any legal case all you need is evidence and a paper trail. This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

In this case every time a meeting is called for between all the family members let the meeting be scheduled with a letter that is sent to all the members by a verifiable way. If by postal mail let it be by registered mail. If it is by email or sms find a way of filing the same so that you have evidence that everyone was invited.

On the day of the meeting make sure the meeting and all meetings have minutes written down. These include attendance and everything that was discussed. Record everything. If during the attendance the absence of the individual was discussed make sure it is recorded. Now that you have 9 people at the meeting each of them can try and reach out to the missing person to let them know that the meeting has started and find out if they are on the way. All this should be recorded in the minutes including whatever excuses were given for not attending. Now here you have two things, you have the minutes which record everything and also 9 witnesses to attempts to try to reach out to the missing person.

Make sure all deliberations are fair and the person is given his rightful share.

Most important keep all records. Make sure the person is always invited to all meetings and all minutes of all the meetings are sent to him.

You can shout all you want in court but nothing beats good records and witnesses.


Boss, courts in Kenya have been known to drag inheritance cases over decades due to their inherent slowness, and the fact that they accept very flimsy rebuttals from family members to postpone verdicts. Is there a benefactor in the family who has handled such amounts of 100m personally before? Maybe he can be trusted as a benevolent dictator of custody.
TSi
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 28, 2017 9:22:15 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/27/2015
Posts: 130
Mike Ock wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
If you ever want to avoid any legal trouble or win any legal case all you need is evidence and a paper trail. This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

In this case every time a meeting is called for between all the family members let the meeting be scheduled with a letter that is sent to all the members by a verifiable way. If by postal mail let it be by registered mail. If it is by email or sms find a way of filing the same so that you have evidence that everyone was invited.

On the day of the meeting make sure the meeting and all meetings have minutes written down. These include attendance and everything that was discussed. Record everything. If during the attendance the absence of the individual was discussed make sure it is recorded. Now that you have 9 people at the meeting each of them can try and reach out to the missing person to let them know that the meeting has started and find out if they are on the way. All this should be recorded in the minutes including whatever excuses were given for not attending. Now here you have two things, you have the minutes which record everything and also 9 witnesses to attempts to try to reach out to the missing person.

Make sure all deliberations are fair and the person is given his rightful share.

Most important keep all records. Make sure the person is always invited to all meetings and all minutes of all the meetings are sent to him.

You can shout all you want in court but nothing beats good records and witnesses.


Boss, courts in Kenya have been known to drag inheritance cases over decades due to their inherent slowness, and the fact that they accept very flimsy rebuttals from family members to postpone verdicts. Is there a benefactor in the family who has handled such amounts of 100m personally before? Maybe he can be trusted as a benevolent dictator of custody.


@Mike Ock No they are all poor to average. No one has handled 100M befor

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