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I cannot be both Kenyan and Christian regarding this proposed constitution
Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/3/2010 Posts: 69
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Weak constitution + Weak ethics = Negative consequence
Good constitution + Weak ethics = Negative consequence
Good constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequence
Weak constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequence
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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RVP, very wise. actually Weak constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequence will lead to Good constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequenceAll Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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from whose point of view are we looking at ethics here?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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murenj wrote:I cannot believe that guys here have such short memories. we all know that PEV was a result of loss of confidence in the judiciary system. Now, election petitions will be determined in 60 days, and a rerun for closely presidential candidates within 30 days............ clearly no need for violence here. By the way, how many PEV survivors are still receiving aid from those churches? Good question Murenj!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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Mtu Biz wrote:
One more thing....
The source of all Good, all Justice, all Truth, all that we seek in 'strong laws and institutions'.
The source of all that we call Right and Fair and Good is God.
God as revealed in the holy scriptures and in his historically documented dealings with man.
You will be wise to seek him first.
Disclaimer (coming first before you misinterprete me and start kunikemea! I am a staunch christian) Granted and the fact that I have a different opinion by the way, has got no bearing with how i relate to my God. As christians as we may want to be, God put us on earth where we are going to be ruled by an earthly kings... during the olden days, He Himself appointed the kings... now that we do the voting and we do not have that elaborate miracle happen as it used to during that time, this is where the laws of the land come in... same laws that were applied when Jesus was crucified and he never said that they should quite applying them and only be ruled by the word of God... this is because he knew the government had a purpose... otherwise, he wouldnt even have advocated for taxes to be paid. Why didnt he say "do not pay any more taxes to these governments especially given that the likes of zachaeus will steal your money".... that is where the constitution comes in.... Even if lets say we agree to Vote No, we still will need this constitution and the need for strong institutions is undebatable.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/3/2010 Posts: 69
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poundfoolish wrote:from whose point of view are we looking at ethics here? Not sure. Is stealing ethical? Depends from whose point of view. Anyway, maybe I meant values. My point is even with a good constitution, people can choose to ignore it. E.g. a good constitution does not insulate a country from a military coup.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/12/2010 Posts: 1,199 Location: Eastlander
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poundfoolish wrote:from whose point of view are we looking at ethics here? poundfoolish..am not a very bright block but am reliably informed of this premese.. "The Church is the custodian of morality in any decent society".. so, still aware am not very bright a block, it is safe to assume that point of view of the church on matters ethics and morality ought to weigh more in any discussion of a just and equitable society.. By the way..wonder what Islam, hindus et al, say of abortion, women rights.. ..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/5/2010 Posts: 92
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Good people to me i think this is a loose-loose situation not a win-loose neither a win-win situation.If we pass this draft with the flaws it has( which by the way Nzamba kitonga and his team had a chance 2 ammend)as christians we fail and loose, if we do not pass it as a contry we miss a great chance and hence loose. Some have been thought brave because they were afraid to run away.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Ethics are not relative...so are morals. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/30/2009 Posts: 1,390
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RVP wrote:Weak constitution + Weak ethics = Negative consequence
Good constitution + Weak ethics = Negative consequence
Good constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequence
Weak constitution + Strong ethics = Positive consequence you're so on pt bro.An Skerian once told us that the new katiba is the most overhyped thing in kenya.I agree.reading thru todays nation on UK election, i get that the British electoral system is prone to flaws with loose rules n many unwritten codes.yet there are no irregularities!yet we've had a clear constitn since 63 bt went on to kil 1133 people in the last election after which we blamed everybody else apart frm ourselves.(politicians-incited us, church-took sides, wakoloni stole our land etc)Yet the idiot who killed ,the 1 who commited arsön n raped r stil free somewhere waiting for 2012.If we were incited hw come we were so ready to do so many inhuman acts against fello kenyans?The ODM told us tht Kenyans were so angry that they did those acts.So angry that they raped?? The Kenyan public needs to change too What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/16/2009 Posts: 1,464
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@Kadonye...............I feel you totally!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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@Proverb n RVP
Ive read "strong ethics" on the 'equations' posted...
strong ethics have had Mavuno labelled as too liberal.
same ethics have dismissed Akorino and legio Maria as either archaic or sect.
strong ethics have had the protestants castigate catholics on drinking and smoking.
strong ethics have had catholics even refuse contraceptives in a marriage.
strong ethics have Sunni Saudi Arabia use sharia law while sunni Iraq allowed their women to wear trousers.
Strong ethics demand we abhor abortion
Strong ethics dictate gossip is bad.. bribing is bad jumping queue is bad... things that 99% of kenyans are guilty of.
Ethics from any point of view are relative...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@poundfoolish. there is a difference between legalism or dogma and ethics. what you have highlighted there are legalistic actions and dogmatic tendencies and religious opinions. Ethics are concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, justice, virtue, compassion , empathy, magnanimity e.t.c. they form the bed rock of every thriving civilization and every fallen civilization's demise can be traced to lack and demise them. God has written them in everyone's heart. Its not a matter of religion. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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Wendz wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:
One more thing....
The source of all Good, all Justice, all Truth, all that we seek in 'strong laws and institutions'.
The source of all that we call Right and Fair and Good is God.
God as revealed in the holy scriptures and in his historically documented dealings with man.
You will be wise to seek him first.
Disclaimer (coming first before you misinterprete me and start kunikemea! I am a staunch christian) Firstly No Comment on your disclaimer Wendz wrote:
Granted and the fact that I have a different opinion by the way, has got no bearing with how i relate to my God.
This Depends. If your opinion differs from mine, the above is true. If your opinion differs from scripture(Gods opinion), the above is false. Wendz wrote:
As christians as we may want to be, God put us on earth where we are going to be ruled by an earthly kings... during the olden days, He Himself appointed the kings...
God Ruled Israel via his servants the Judges, Samuel was the last Judge, The people wanted to be ruled by kings like their neighbors, this distressed Samuel, God clarified to Samuel that it was not he that they had rejected but God. Wendz wrote:
now that we do the voting and we do not have that elaborate miracle happen as it used to during that time, this is where the laws of the land come in...
The laws of the land were present and in operation before during and after the reigns of Israels kings. There were also laws wherever the people of Israel were captives. Wendz wrote:
same laws that were applied when Jesus was crucified
here i beg to quote the actual text... John 19:6 When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him! Pilate saith unto them, Take him yourselves, and crucify him: for I find no crime in him. Wendz wrote:
and he never said that they should quite applying them and only be ruled by the word of God...
Remember as you render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's you render to God what is God's. The meaning of this is.... in whose image are YOU made. Then to God you should render your life. Which is greater? what you render to Ceasar of what you render to God? Wendz wrote:
this is because he knew the government had a purpose... otherwise, he wouldnt even have advocated for taxes to be paid. Why didnt he say "do not pay any more taxes to these governments especially given that the likes of zachaeus will steal your money".... that is where the constitution comes in.... Even if lets say we agree to Vote No, we still will need this constitution and the need for strong institutions is undebatable.
I beg to say this. 1.If you profess Christianity, your hope is not in a constitution or anything outside of the Lord your God. 2. If you are handed a choice between having a law to govern your affairs that can potentially hinder the free exercise of your faith and a law that does not hinder you... you choose the latter.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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1.If you profess Christianity, your hope is not
in a constitution or anything outside of the
Lord your God.
Then why all the hullabaloo about a misty clause...
I tell you what i'm afraid of, i'm afraid of radical christians who used the same scriptures to classify races not long ago.
the same radicals that are amalgamating in the USA over Obama and the likes..
The same radicals that advocate for violence on Muslim countries and shield Israel even if on the wrong.. now don't get me wrong.. i support Israel but there are some things their leaders (who some are atheist) do that are quite wrong.
On that point ever heard of John Hagee or Pat Robertson preach??
Im afraid of christian radicals who have been dilly darling while others have been strategising only to come out at the last minute breathing brimstones..
No 'foot in the door' approach but 'its either our way or the highway'...
Im afraid of peoplw who dint seat and plan but just made noise all through thumbing their chest waiting for the end some game... Crush and burn (the constitution)
further more.. The politicians dont want this constitution, its all politics to them and in my honest opinion the same way the political class has played us on the TJRC is the same way it is playing us with this draft.. and who are among the puppets??????
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@poundfoolish , you fear radical Christians. Those Radical Christians fear Radical Muslims. Who do Radical Muslims fear? while the radical Christians may justify their fundamentalism (citing 9/11, Kikambala Bombing , August 7th Bomb Blast). What can you say you fear about the Christian radicals? The Christian radicals in the US are against Obama because he is just another DOMOcrat. I have noticed that this world is full of sissies and cowards. people who have no SPINE. whenever some1 stands and goes against the grain (anti-political correctness) he is seen as a fundamentalist and all in good intention (to UNITE all so you cede a little space and sing kumbaya) but remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I have heard people accusing the church that during the last election it took sides. Who didn't? the Muslims did (NAMLEF with ODM and SUPKEM with PNU), the media did, people on SK did, some Churches DID. so as you point figures remember that their are 4 more pointing at you (your 3 and 1 from ME) All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/30/2009 Posts: 1,390
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masukuma wrote:I have heard people accusing the church that during the last election it took sides. Who didn't? the Muslims did (NAMLEF with ODM and SUPKEM with PNU), the media did, people on SK did, some Churches DID. so as you point figures remember that their are 4 more pointing at you (your 3 and 1 from ME) I love this part What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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The problem, with churches, was taking sides then invoking the name of the one and same God..
I for once was left wondering which 'God' did they consult cos he gave them different answers.there was a maseno diocess god a mnt kenya god, the methodists said yes, the ACK leaned no...God Forbid!
If you follow immediate history you will note that, the radicalization of the muslim has something to do with the conservative evangelicals in America. watch Christian Amanpoors 'Gods Warriors' and you will understand, none of the so called radicals have any basis. its either a 'sura' in the Koran, a verse in the bible or a claim to anti-semitisim.. but the real fight is nothing really spiritual par se.
so please note 'we' are not SPINELESS, 'we' are tactful, 'we' are calculative and 'we' are patient..
'we' just use, and i repeat, use, the radicals at the right time.. like now.
NB. We here stands for non-radicals.
Osama/Taliban/Bithers/Republicans/Democrats(last elections)/ODM/PNU etc all have think tanks that work hard and long on the background and at the right time provoke situations that radicals cant waste..
I'll ask you a blant question..
Do you think it is by sheer ignorance/arrogance or duress that the so contentious Abortion clauses and subclauses survived all amendments.
with the countries African Values, with the majority of the population and political leaders and the COE being either Christian or Muslim.
This is politics my friends constitution is still politics
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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Now that the final draft is out and there's no return I have some concerns. First let me say my mind is made up and I'm voting for it. I've prayed about it and I pray God gives us a way to sort out the 2-4% that we dislike. Please let's debate. Share your views. My concerns: CHAPTER 4 - THE BILL OF RIGHTS32. Freedom of conscience, religion, belief and opinion(1) Every person has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion. (2) Every person has the right, either individually or in community with others, in public or in private, to manifest any religion or belief through worship, practice, teaching or observance, including observance of a day of worship. Doesn't this section open the door for cults and devil worship?34. Freedom of the media(2) The State shall not— (a) exercise control over or interfere with any person engaged in broadcasting, the production or circulation of any publication or the dissemination of information by any medium; or (b) penalise any person for any opinion or view or the content of any broadcast, publication or dissemination. Doesn't this section regalise pornography?
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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34. Freedom of the media
(2) The State shall not—
(a) exercise control over or interfere with any person engaged in broadcasting, the production or circulation of any publication or the dissemination of information by any medium; or
(b) penalise any person for any opinion or view or the content of any broadcast, publication or dissemination.
Doesn't this section regalise pornography?
[/quote]
And the exception?
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I cannot be both Kenyan and Christian regarding this proposed constitution
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