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I cannot be both Kenyan and Christian regarding this proposed constitution
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Kenyan Kop
#31 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 4:12:13 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2007
Posts: 56
Masukuma I need to engage you on your this one. jkinyx@yahoo.com

Thank you.
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Obi 1 Kanobi
#32 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:26:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
Brewer wrote:
Wendz, I think it is Plato who said that Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.


The PEV did not happen because we do not have good laws, it's the culture of hatred and intolerance driven mainly by our politics. The politicians are still here and resoundingly in the Yes side. Listening to them I hardly think they have changed their ways. I hardly think we have changed our ways.

The constitution like quite a number of our laws is good to have but it is not the 'cure all' prescription for our problems. The No camp, especially the church leaders, have been treated less than kindly for saying No. The process of making the constitution is as important as the constitution itself and cannot employ intolerance and hatred to pass the 'good' constitution.

In terms of content, the constitution needs to be 'values-based' and not because 'we have been at it for too long',or 'it is an expensive exercise'. According to the church leaders the issues they raise ( entrenching abortion on demand & equal treatment of religions) are strong enough to rob the document of most of its 'values'.


@ Brewer.

The reason PEV happened was simply because we did not have good laws, thats also the reason why 3 years later, nobody has been successfully prosecuted and punished for them. Our lack of good laws are the reason why Ocampo keeps hovering around Nairobi.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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masukuma
#33 Posted : Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:22:55 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Obi, you are truly and sincerely mistaken. PEV happened because we have LOST VALUE FOR LIFE AND OTHER PEOPLE'S PROPERTY. We enjoy a law-less society. it happened in Rwanda, Czech republic e.t.c. We keep on comparing ourselves with Nations that are one people nations like UK and most of Europe but fail to understand that we are NOT ONE PEOPLE we are many!!. We must find a solution for ourselves similar to what our brothers in Tanganyika have. We must VALUE Kenya and Kenyans - a constitution is a manifestation of those values not a panacea for all our inbuilt ills. Its work that a plebiscite will not do.
ACT, DON'T REACT! for many people , passing this draft is a reaction to PEV.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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ProverB
#34 Posted : Thursday, May 06, 2010 8:41:13 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/12/2010
Posts: 1,199
Location: Eastlander
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:

1."Give unto ceasar" and unto the lord (for me this means he separated the laws of man from those of the lord, because man's laws are inferior in the eyes of God and will not be taken into consideration come judgement day).
2. Secondly there is the question he was asked about what should man do when his donkey falls into a ditch on sabbath. He answered that the sabbath was created to serve man and not the other way round. Meaning that you should not ignore common sense in the pretext of following the bible.

There is no evidence where God judges a people collectively (atleast post Jesus), christianity is belief in Jesus, the old testament is very important for background purposes but reference to it to justify a hardline positions is retrogressive



Obi..Christ was talking on TAXES... TAXES!! T. A. X. E. S.
YOU EQUATING TAX TO LIFE??

Please get my point..life is sacred...that won't change.

Christianity is not a democracy...you will never hear someone calling christians to collectively down grade Adultery from "sin" to "misdemeanor"...The Bible is absolute..complete in itself..lacking nothing..needing nothing..unless you are not a christian..in which case belive in what you will..but to christians..the Bible is complete..and absolute..and it portrays in itself that life is sacred.. life is life is life..

Cain Killed Abel..God did not "see" the murder..but he HEARD the blood of Abel speak!..i cannot explain that..ask God to.
Thanx.

but then, you are free to differ.
..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
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WWW
  | | Edit by user: Thursday, May 06, 2010 8:44 AM | Reason: Not specified
masukuma
#35 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 5:17:05 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I saw Njoki Ndungu Lying on Nation yesterday. She was lucky there was no sharp guy over there to blast her out of the water.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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murenj
#36 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 8:52:11 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 851
Location: nairobi
I cannot believe that guys here have such short memories. we all know that PEV was a result of loss of confidence in the judiciary system. Now, election petitions will be determined in 60 days, and a rerun for closely presidential candidates within 30 days............ clearly no need for violence here. By the way, how many PEV survivors are still receiving aid from those churches?
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Wendz
#37 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 9:09:10 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
masukuma wrote:
@Obi, you are truly and sincerely mistaken. PEV happened because we have LOST VALUE FOR LIFE AND OTHER PEOPLE'S PROPERTY. We enjoy a law-less society. it happened in Rwanda, Czech republic e.t.c. We keep on comparing ourselves with Nations that are one people nations like UK and most of Europe but fail to understand that we are NOT ONE PEOPLE we are many!!. We must find a solution for ourselves similar to what our brothers in Tanganyika have. We must VALUE Kenya and Kenyans - a constitution is a manifestation of those values not a panacea for all our inbuilt ills. Its work that a plebiscite will not do.
ACT, DON'T REACT! for many people , passing this draft is a reaction to PEV.


@Masukuma
We all know that is not true.... The reason there was PEV was because of some tribal chiefs that incited their communities across the country! why else were we up against each other on tribal grounds... does it mean as a luo i respect luo property but not kisii property? Why didnt we see a kikuyu destroy another kikuyu's property if that was the case?

True, we do have a country that does not have strong institutions to protect the property of individuals and that is what the proposed contitution is supposed to be doing! exactly that. If you didnt know, majority of the people saying no (politicians specifically) are saying no because the proposed constitution deals very firmly on leaders. Leaders will no longer benefit from being tribal chiefs, they wont seek electoral office if they have previously misused their office.... that is the only way to send all these goons home.... because, from the word go, they will not even qualify to present their papers to the electoral commission.... and thats why we need an electoral commission and judiciary that can bite and bite real hard... and this is the chance we have!
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Mtu Biz
#38 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 11:37:25 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
Interesting Views. My 2 cents.

1. The 'strength' of any Institution or Law
rests on the VALUE placed on it by the people
it affects and not in itself.

2. The proposed Law (or any other)has no
capacity to inform or change the values of a
people.

Guys, even if you Vote Yes quit thinking that this is "the answer to our problems, the moment we have been waiting for etc".

There is no promised land......









Sola Scriptura
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sky5
#39 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 12:22:08 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
I agree with Mtu Biz.

The new draft constitution is not the answer to the countries problems. It is great and good leadership that is required.

A good constitution in hands of a bad leader with not serve us.

You cannot be both Kenyan and Christian at the same time. There must be separation of earthly citizenship and heavenly citizenship. As a Christian you are an ambassador send to represent your Master. This is what should inform your vote!
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Mtu Biz
#40 Posted : Friday, May 07, 2010 12:36:49 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320

One more thing....

The source of all Good, all Justice, all Truth, all that we seek in 'strong laws and institutions'.

The source of all that we call Right and Fair and Good is God.

God as revealed in the holy scriptures and in his historically documented dealings with man.

You will be wise to seek him first.
Sola Scriptura
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