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What is Democracy?
AlphDoti
#11 Posted : Thursday, November 17, 2016 4:03:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
...The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result.
Hey!!!!...Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly....are your sure they call that democracy?smile
A Kenyan friend used to call it 'guided democracy'

Hypocrisy of democracy!

The reality is that democracy is seriously flawed political enterprise. We need to stop treating democracy like a God. We need to stop using terms like democracy and freedom. Democracy is very easily corruptible. Susceptible to some of the worst forms of humanity as we have seen in trump election: illusion of choice, manufactured consent...

Noam Chomsky in his book: Manufacturing consent talks about how mass media works against the pple's best interest and essentially brainwashes the pple, indoctrinate them, so that they think they have the illusion of choice but in reality, they don't have an actual choice.

So yes, it is a tool, but it has serious cons.
tycho
#12 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2016 9:27:48 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?

US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.

In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!

Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato!


There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women).

That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable.

The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result.


@Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance?


Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe.

As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree.

As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong.


My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.

@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments.

I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated...
Wakanyugi
#13 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2016 2:29:00 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?

US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.

In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!

Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato!


There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women).

That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable.

The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result.


@Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance?


Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe.

As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree.

As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong.


My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.

@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments.

I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated...


In that case yes, you could say I am a Platonista. Where he uses the term 'form' I use 'pattern' - same difference.

The discussion we are having would seem to indicate that formism is not outdated at all

Democracy is an ideal in conceptual form - more real in our mind than outside it. Our frustration with the concept comes largely from the difficulty we have in reproducing it into the perceptual world of space and time, human relations and other 'imperfections' that attend Earthly reality.

But Plato would also say that the it is not in realizing democracy that we achieve greatness but rather in the striving towards the unattainable. The effort is more important than the reward.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
sitaki.kujulikana
#14 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2016 4:23:41 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
Platonista ni plato that had me confused at some point.

assuming non BA philosophy majors are allowed to contribute, mimi kwa maoni yangu democracy is like nyama choma and the feast that follows and those on the outside quenching their saliva thirst.

so democracy is that process of determining who gets to eat meat, and a lack of democracy is whatever those who 'meza mate' say.
Wakanyugi
#15 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2016 5:50:46 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Platonista ni plato that had me confused at some point.

assuming non BA philosophy majors are allowed to contribute, mimi kwa maoni yangu democracy is like nyama choma and the feast that follows and those on the outside quenching their saliva thirst.

so democracy is that process of determining who gets to eat meat, and a lack of democracy is whatever those who 'meza mate' say.


That is the classic Jubilee definition of democracy, also known as 'kusema na kutender'. Your cynicism is valid.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Swenani
#16 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2016 8:15:40 PM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Democracy is electing the least popular guy among the poor but the most popular guy among the rich
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
masukuma
#17 Posted : Saturday, November 19, 2016 11:56:12 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Swenani wrote:
Democracy is electing the least popular guy among the poor but the most popular guy among the rich

To a hammer all problems look like nails! What we have is democracy in it's rawest form... it's called WINNER TAKES ALL or FIRST PAST THE POST. in the long run, First past the post always ends up with a two party system. A system driven by hate for the other guy/party. In Kenya that is bound to happen soon. People are already congregating around 2 parties and any 3rd party is considered a 'spoiled vote' - you may actually like the guy (KARUA for me in 2013) but you start thinking... how will @hardwood vote? and thus you change your vote driven not by liking Karua but by hating who @hardwood will vote for. We end up with akina dida not running or karua, Kiyapi, mudavadi and Kenneth being mezwad


There are alternative systems out there... especially in Europe! they have been able to hack this problem. there is the altenative vote (AV) system. Where people vote for more than one candidate. So you get a ballot and you rank them and state who is your number 1, number 2, number 3... upto the point you want. you can do only one or you can rank all the candidates. this is called the Alternative Vote. think of it as an instant run off - the rule is that you must have majority to win (50+1 in our case) and so @swenani likes Karua and can tolerate Raila. he puts 1 on Karua and 2 on Raila. when no one gets to 50%+1 - the voters who voted for the lowest ranked person (say Kiyapi) get examined and we deduce who they voted for as no. 2. if it's Raila - they are all added to Rao and if Rao gets to 50%+1 - he becomes president... instant run off!


The third system is the single transferable vote (STV) - in this system there are no primaries. Parties can have multiple candidates on the ballot. So JP can have Sonko, Wanjiru, Waititu, Kenneth e.t.c. and CORD can have Kisia and Kidero and Miguna would run as an independent. in a first past the post - JP would have "haribud Kura" by having multiple candidates on the ballot and Kidero would pita katikati yao. however the STV has an element of the Alternative vote (AV) where you must get to a threshold to get elected. if no one gets to that threshold the greatest loosers votes are caniblaized by their second choices. We end up with people who we really like or at least we had on our ballots.


there are other systems propotional representation systems - especially for parliamentary systems,


here is the mixed member propotional systems
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Angelica _ann
#18 Posted : Saturday, November 19, 2016 1:22:07 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,937
Seeing Koigi join JP to contest Nakuru Senatorial seat and supporting UMK to the core shows you cleely how democracy works in Africa. Always join your tribal king or perish!!!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
masukuma
#19 Posted : Saturday, November 19, 2016 1:32:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
Seeing Koigi join JP to contest Nakuru Senatorial seat and supporting UMK to the core shows you cleely how democracy works in Africa. Always join your tribal king or perish!!!

Read my post! it explains it all!! Nyongo and his SDP run against Raila in 1997 akaonyeshwa moto, Orengo run against Raila in 2002 and wakaonyeshwa moto... so they have towed the line.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#20 Posted : Saturday, November 19, 2016 2:19:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?

US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.

In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!

Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato!


There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women).

That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable.

The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result.


@Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance?


Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe.

As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree.

As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong.


My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.

@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments.

I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated...


In that case yes, you could say I am a Platonista. Where he uses the term 'form' I use 'pattern' - same difference.

The discussion we are having would seem to indicate that formism is not outdated at all

Democracy is an ideal in conceptual form - more real in our mind than outside it. Our frustration with the concept comes largely from the difficulty we have in reproducing it into the perceptual world of space and time, human relations and other 'imperfections' that attend Earthly reality.

But Plato would also say that the it is not in realizing democracy that we achieve greatness but rather in the striving towards the unattainable. The effort is more important than the reward.


How do things get outdated? When their usefulness is depleted, not when their names are 'unuttered'. So talk about forms doesn't make forms relevant, at least in practical conduct.

Your last paragraph is about Plato being a champion of fantasy. And that, he recommends fantasy, or action driven by fantasy. Why? Because one kind of fantasy is better than another?

There must be a way that goes beyond fantasy.In making democracy a fantasy, and insisting that it's also not a fantasy, is a ridiculous position.

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