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why do i vote YES for Kenya proposed constitution
Rank: Member Joined: 5/1/2009 Posts: 206
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am one of those people voting yes bt do nt have a reason 4 voting yes. my predicament is i have reasons 4 voting no. anybody to convience me to vote yes slammers attached the following image(s):  katiba.jpg (4kb) downloaded 0 time(s).
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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Eeeh heeee @slammers; there's been too much back and forth about the constitution and everyone throwing stones at us because we've not read it. I've just downloaded the - current constitution The Constitution of Kenya 2009 (2008) As Amended
-and new constitution The Proposed Constitution by CoE As Approved by National Assembly (1st April 2010)I'll be posting my opinion as days go by - and yes I'm just a layman. Heck it's just like reading a 200pg novel with wide spacing, but much more impact guys. You can join the reading club  01. On reading the project context and final reports, it has dawned on me that quite some process and consultative approach has brought us to where we are now. From Bomas days over 80% of the draft was not in contention; current efforts have brought us to closer agreement on issues of devolution and executive. No wonder there's concensus in over 90% of the draft. 02. Okay I confess I'm party to poetry and the preamble to the constitution is poooeetiic! We, the people of Kenya, acknowledging the supremacy of almighty God; honouring those who heroically struggled to bring freedom and justice; proud of our ethnic, cultural and religious diversity; committed to nuturing and protecting well-being of the individual; recognising aspirations for essential values of human rights, equality, freedom, democracy, social justice and rule of law; ... 03. I like Chapter One - Sovereignity of the People and Supremacy of this Constitution. Basically it says I'm the boss and I've sat down with my brothers and sisters and stipulated and committed to defend my key rights. Only after that do I give anyone permission to take up administrative/public office to exercise my rights. Note so far I did not mention the current consititution; it has none of that! Chapter Two of new constitution is The Republic and the old consitution just starts with the Republic - how drab!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2007 Posts: 2,047
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Thanks Muganda.......for posting,i will soma pia.
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/1/2009 Posts: 206
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@muganda pliz read chapter 6 -33 -4
The provisions of this chapter ( bill of rights) on equality shall be qualified to the extent strictly necessary for the application of islamic law to person who profess the muslim faith
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@muganda, It so true people have not read the draft and are vehemently fighting for it. i have read Mutahi Ngunyi's opinion and tend to agree with it. Quote:The second is a question: If Mr Odinga had said “No”, how many of you would still be in the “Yes” camp? If the president had disagreed with Mr Odinga and chosen the “No” path, would this brigade be intact? Is the “Yes” brigade intact because the two principals are in it or is it because the draft is good? on the same reading note look at this confusion in the draft this is from the Bill of RightsQuote:32. (1) Every person has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion.
(2) Every person has the right, either individually or in community with others,
in public or in private, to manifest any religion or belief through worship, practice, teaching or observance, including observance of a day of worship.
(3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion.
(4) A person shall not be compelled to act, or engage in any act, that is contrary to the person’s belief or religion. correlate with this in the same paper Quote:170. (1) There shall be a Chief Kadhi and such number, being not fewer than three,
of other Kadhis as may be prescribed under an Act of Parliament.
(2) A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to hold or act in the office of
Kadhi unless the person—
(a) professes the Muslim religion; and
(b) possesses such knowledge of the Muslim law applicable to any sects
of Muslims as qualifies the person, in the opinion of the Judicial
Service Commission, to hold a Kadhi’s court. so regardless of your testable knowledge of muslim law, an atheist, a Christian a hindu cannot be a Kadhi. ? I think this is an Exception to provisions in the bill of rights All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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I rarely agree with you @Masukuma but the above is brilliant. If only this "Katiba" circus was being discussed thus, it would be super. I sincerely hope that this thread continues in this spirit. Personally, although I have not registered, I have questions. For example, does 32(2) give Devil Worshipers the right to practice their"Religion"? There is this Sect that does not believe in seeking medical attention from doctors and health institutions. Would they be protected by 32(4) above if, for example, the sick person died and a Sect member was charged with murder or manslaughter for not taking the sick person to the hospital?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@aemathenge, thanks. I also think people should be aware that this is a crapy law Quote:Supremacy of this Constitution
2. (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic and binds all persons
and all State organs at both levels of government.
(2) No person may claim or exercise State authority except as authorised under
this Constitution.
(3) The validity or legality of this Constitution is not subject to challenge by or
before any court or other State organ.
(4) Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistent with this
Constitution is void to the extent of the inconsistency, and any act or
omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid.
(5) The general rules of international law shall form part of the law of Kenya.
(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of Kenya under this Constitution. Eh...Who is Kenya? The Government? What if the government ratifies a treaty that annexes part of the Kenyan border (for a while - maybe 999 years) to some foreign land. At what point will Kenyans be consulted? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/30/2009 Posts: 141
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@Masukuma . At last we can start talking (3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion. This section is not absolute. There are always exceptions to the rule. For example, if we are to follow your argument, then a muslim can become the chairman of the NCCK. This is an issue that has been bugging Kenya for a long time. People who are qualified to do a job are denied the job only on the basis of the the items in (3) It is meant to ensure that "qualified" people get the jobs they deserve. If you masukuma can interpret muslim law, and are a muslim, by all means, apply for the job. This section does not mean that you have a right to go into a hindu church with shoes in a mini skirt just because you cannot be denied access. @ aemathenge As for the "devil worship" issue. Devil worshp according to who. Some christians believe islam is devil worship. Some evangelicals believe praying through Mary is devil worship. "The General rules" does not mean "all" the rules That is why we have the supreme court to intepret what "international rules" will apply based on the "spirit" of the constitution. That is the reason why it will be upto the Kenyan masses to elect those that will interpret the rules according to their own views. For example if you elect bad leaders, then it is your fault, if they allow the annexing part of the country, not the constitutions fault. It is important to read the whole document and the context of the document. Not take bits and pieces as most evangelicals like taking bits and pieces of the bible to push a certain view. The context of the document is what @muganda showed at the start Hata wakizima taa
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/19/2008 Posts: 60
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@Nanfor1........whenever there is an exception ,it is expressly mention. Also NCCK is not on the constitution and its funded by the church. SInce our taxes will pay the Kadhis then any kenyan should be eligible.
Moving on...........Has anyone come across the cost implication once the draft is implemented?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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masukuma wrote:@muganda, (3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion. What would your wish be? That we are denied access to Pwani University because it is ran by a muslim and majority of the students are muslims and its in the coastal strip on the basis that am a christian? correlate with this in the same paper Quote:170.
(2) A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to hold or act in the office of
Kadhi unless the person—
(a) professes the Muslim religion; assuming you are christian and believe that one should not marry more than one wife and you strongly believe that, how are you supposed to solve a problem presented to you in which case the parties have disputes over polygamy issues? and how about their culture that you can marry a 1st cousin? so how well would one handle that if you do not believe in such? How much would such a person being tried by someone from a different faith feel justice has been done? As Nanfor said, it is ensuring you have competent person for the job.
and
(b) possesses such knowledge of the Muslim law applicable to any sects
of Muslims as qualifies the person, in the opinion of the Judicial
Service Commission, to hold a Kadhi’s court. so regardless of your testable knowledge of muslim law, an atheist, a Christian a hindu cannot be a Kadhi. ? I think this is an Exception to provisions in the bill of rights
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/19/2008 Posts: 60
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@ Wendz............when cases that have been handled by Kadhi courts are appealed in High court or court of appeal, are all judges on the bench Muslims???
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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masukuma wrote:@aemathenge, thanks. I also think people should be aware that this is a crapy law Quote:Supremacy of this Constitution
2. (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic and binds all persons
and all State organs at both levels of government.
(2) No person may claim or exercise State authority except as authorised under
this Constitution.
(3) The validity or legality of this Constitution is not subject to challenge by or
before any court or other State organ. This is very important because constitution is what makes the country and any other laws that govern everyone stem from the constitution... the moment you make it challegeable in courts of law, then it stops being a constitution.... its like questioning your own existence or the mission of the company.... when the mission starts being challenged, the the entire existence of the organisation stops.... only that in kenya, no one believes in these missions anyway... but thats how serious it is.
(4) Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistent with this
Constitution is void to the extent of the inconsistency, and any act or
omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid.
(5) The general rules of international law shall form part of the law of Kenya. Yes, this is because we do not live in an island. and we need international laws if our own kenyan laws are not followed.... otherwise, there wouldnt be need for ICC.... and kenya being a signatory or agreeing to be under the UN, then these laws are important to ensure that there is co-existence with our neighboring countries etc.
(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of Kenya under this Constitution. The assumption is that, we, as the kenyan people are rational enough to elect people who truly represent us and give them that mandate... you wouldnt expect other countries to come and ask eveyrone of us in kenya to vote for a part of law that need to be included...... if we cant trust our leaders to make the right decisions for us, then too bad we are stuck with the crap decisions they make because when we elect our leaders, we agree to be bound by their actions... just like the way shareholders are bound by the actions of the CEO that they have appointed to run their company....Eh...Who is Kenya? The Government? What if the government ratifies a treaty that annexes part of the Kenyan border (for a while - maybe 999 years) to some foreign land. At what point will Kenyans be consulted?
Those would be my layman's explanations that I believe made sense if you look at them with an open mind. Now, imagine if we say no to this draft, and we get only one masukuma....... how long will it take to have a new constitution with all these issues that are emerging now? I thought we had been given several months to raise our issues with the committee on this?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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Soko tele wrote:@ Wendz............when cases that have been handled by Kadhi courts are appealed in High court or court of appeal, are all judges on the bench Muslims??? They do not have to be ALL Muslims but whatever decision they make, they are guided by the Khadhi. There is no appeal of any cases from the Kadhi courts that can be conducted in absense of the kadhi.... and even the judges wouldnt accept to conduct such as that wouldnt be justice.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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TIMEOUT GUYS I actually thought we'd take the effort to go through all the Chapters systematically and avoid the trap of always back to Kadhi and Abortion clauses. Me I'd just said what I liked on the accompanying briefs and then begun on Chapter 1... @masukuma in the old constitution Kenya was defined as a 'definition'. In the new constitution, I see it is defined in the beginning of Chapter 2, much better if I may say so. In 1 (3) of new constitution, the People (us) clearly delegate authority to state organs. Under the old constitution - hakuna Okay let me continue, as per @slammers challenge, with my opinions on what I like with these points from Chapter 2: point 04. It's quite clear that the second chapter is well thought out in my view. I like the idea of first describing the Republic of Kenya - territory, levels of government, national values, principles, culture etc. I can't belive that thus far our current constitution doesn't mention the flag, anthem and culture. Is my search not working, Kenyans keep going on and on about culture and our current constitution doesn't speak once about our heritage??? (7) National language of Republic is Kiswahili This one simple statement does not exist in our current constitution. In fact only reference I found was to the official languages of conducting business of the national assembly. (8) There shall be no state religion This one simple statement does not exist in our current constitution - surprising!
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/30/2009 Posts: 141
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this is the danger of having the clergy becoming constitutinal law experts. All of a sudden, they quote one sentence and the world is coming to an end. I would humbly suggest that if anyone has issues with any part of the constitution do what my pastor did this weekend. He brought a few lawyers who debated and argued the various issues the flock had. We had Yes lawyers and No lawyers. It was eye opening. At the end of the session. it was some 6 hours on Sunday afternoon, the majority found out that someone had been lying to them. If you really value your sanity, ask your pastor to do the same. Most of the shouting pastors as i call them are really bad lawyers if you ask me. Ladies
Do you know that you are not guaranteed citizenship in the current constitution? Now that got the women folk voting Yes. Sorry Masukuma, no wonder you have issues with the draft. You may have read it but you have absoulutely no understanding of what it means. Now that is dangerous. Hata wakizima taa
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2007 Posts: 2,047
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Now you Nanfor1,could you please give the forum a summary of the 6 hours in church with your non- shouting pastor and the lawyers
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/30/2009 Posts: 141
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@famooz I keep on saying that I don't get information that will affect my kids from wazua, politicians or the clergy. I prefer going to see my doctor after I have prayed + a little gin and tonic. The simple summary is in my point of view Judging from the electrifying, exciting and eye opening debate between pro and against lawyer, this constitution is much better than what we currently have. So I will vote Yes. If that is irritating to you, that is fine. You go vote No. We shall all pray to the same God for each other to see sense. But as with all constitutions, the majority will rule. Hata wakizima taa
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/7/2009 Posts: 93
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I agree with @muganda's suggestion of keeping the discussion focused on the document.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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I'm voting YES and you should vote YES because we're in a constitutional crisis, yes ladies and gentlemen; there is a vacuum. The Lancaster Constitution expired on 29th December 2007 when we fought. We're currently being governed by a temporary ceasefire MOU crafted by Annan. How will you go to 2012 election without an Electoral Commission? How will you apply the expired Constitution in and after 2012?
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@nanfor1, I have read the draft and selectively read the current draft (something most of the commentators on this forum have not). I take great exception to your claim that i do not understand what i have read. I echo the clergy on this - The draft is somehow good (so was the Wako draft) but I take exception to some matters in it. It has great advantages over the current draft but not all we want and its a case of ASKING Kindly and holding a stick if it fails. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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