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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Swenani wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:I have been watchingn and now I have to say something. I find it disturbing how Alphdoti is being slippery around our revered thinkers and they cannot pin him down even in one lousy point.
Wakanyugi, like an enzyme, has confessed he is not active on Alphdoti's substrate while Tycho is still 'preparing a response' whatever that means and Maskums is asking about amoebas .... C'mon guys, bana. Is it a slow day or what?
Where is the passion, the fire with which you have scorched believers and they ran back to their gods in tears weeping at the rought treatment you meted to them?
hehehehe. This argument seems to assume that Alphadoti is an intellectual lightweight, he is not. He just happens to like religion very much. As for me, I have a policy not to argue with religion, unless I am practicing my favorite hobby - baiting the cacophonous citizens of the Christian right. Plus I happen to like Mullah Alph since that day he resisted putting a fatwa on me after I had confessed to, uhm....liberating a Koran. @Wakanyugi, which one was it Alphadoti: as a recovering Catholic, I only bait Christian Fundamentalists. From the way they screwed up my young mind, I believe they owe me that much. @wakanyugi, are you an atheist? No. But I no longer subscribe to organized religion. I believe one should have a private relationship with his god, whoever he conceptualizes him/her/it to be. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:Soon, it will be possible to resurrect the dead- hint: existence is now increasingly being seen as a simulation, and many other reasons thankfully under the scope that many seem to trust, science... Or think of the mummified remains of Egypt's early rulers. @tycho, can science make their bodies alive again and they can actually be themselves? This is what I mean by saying: IMPOSSIBLE. Yes. They can be made to live again. And they can be 'themselves'.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Tycho: I have come to appreciate the provocative way your mind works, even at those times I find myself disagreeing with you. But on the topic of resurrection, I fear we are missing out on something important, perhaps because of the distraction with the issue of dying. The obsession that humans have for immortality is one resistance to the illusion we call life on earth. We know, deep within us that we are immortal, that in fact we elected to go into this dream of earthly existence for specific reasons. But the dream has become so powerful that few of us can see beyond it without help. We have even called amongst us such masters as Jesus, Mohamed, Buddha, Bahaulah, Zoroaster etc to help us awake. At some point this penchant for immortality became conflated with the longevity, of lack of it, of the human body. The point that our sojourn here is merely a blip on an a massive trip through eternity got completely lost. As often happens both science and religion have weighed in on the matter, in the process causing lots of confusion and missing the true point completely. One of the sages named above is said to have remarked on this irony, that "the same people who want to live for eternity do not know what to do with themselves on a Sunday afternoon," especially now that the Premier league is off. How strange. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi, I agree with you that Man may be immortal. But there's a complication, perhaps out of necessity.
1. A person becomes or is created when a legitimating authority in a society declares an entity to be so, and the legitimated responds and abides in such a relationship.
2. The relationship is that person's soul.
3. Death is when such a relationship can ONLY be experienced with reference to the past and without the legitimated participating actively in it.
4. Life is when the relationship is in the present and continuing and the legitimated is active.
Thus the question of resurrection is one that's contained in a specific space time line of progression.
If my definitions are true then resurrection becomes awfully important. Think of it as proof for immortality, and even as a resource.
Remember the question of resurrection is also one of time travel.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, I agree with you that Man may be immortal. But there's a complication, perhaps out of necessity.
1. A person becomes or is created when a legitimating authority in a society declares an entity to be so, and the legitimated responds and abides in such a relationship.
But which authority is this? God? Your parents? The local Chief? Sorry if my questions above sound facetious. I could not help it. But, seriously, you sell yourself very short here. Your life is not owed to a legitimizing authority. You are an infinite, multidimensional entity that happens to be having an experience, one of many, as a human BEING. You are God playing small. Our Earth walk involves many strange things including: playing at being limited; pretending separation and doing everything we can to create a consensus reality (an unconscious attempt to recreate unity). In this drama many illusions become all encompassing including: that our life is limited to the experience on earth or that we are subject to a legitimizing authority. But none of this is real. At the risk of sounding tedious I repeat: we are not our bodies; we are not limited to the period our bodies can exist; this experience we are having on earth is important but just one of many; we never die; we are primarily non physical beings having a physical experience, for a time; we are only limited by those barriers that we can build, no more. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Personhood, or the 'soul' is only an emergent feature peculiar to society. Different societies may refer to different legitimators. Some will say 'God', others 'Karma'.
In some instances individuals play a narrower role like in the example of Victor the boy of Aveyron, or William James Sidis.
Remember @Wakanyugi, if it's just a matter of transitioning along different vehicles and states in the universe then technically, everything is immortal. But this may not fit in a society. Societies are not just goal oriented but are also necessarily selective of reality. That is, society carries within it the limits of immortality.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Non human societies like those of ants or Chimps have their own legitimators that may differ from human institutions only in degree.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Personhood, or the 'soul' is only an emergent feature peculiar to society. Different societies may refer to different legitimators. Some will say 'God', others 'Karma'.
Brother Tycho: Life on Earth is challenging. So I fully understand why we would need crutches - legitimators as you term it. Science, religion, politics are similar such crutches. Books, TV, social media... are crutches too. But, just like we grew from babyhood to become adults and assume responsibilities, we need to grow up as human beings - wake up to the realization that these crutches are not real. We don't need legitimators, we are not dependent on any authority except the one we set over ourselves. We are not limited by any barriers save those we have constructed. Marianne Williamson has argued that it is our greatness that scares us, thus the obsessive attachment to this state of 'smallness.' I think it is time to get past all that. That is all I am saying. Now I take a break "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Everything in the universe is limited, even the universe itself is limited. Even God, I have come to realize, is limited. So the proposition that humans are unlimited is not only false, but probably also misguided.
The reasons for my assertion are based on the evidence of laws, and form. In that all things are governed by laws, and all things are energic.
Because of this, all things will transform to other things and not just maintain what we may call immortality, but all things are reversible.
When you, @Wakanyugi says, 'we' you enter into legitimization, albeit, unconsciously. All language, all communication, even at the most basic forms of being like strings or even the most elementary particles exhibit legitimization. Legitimization isn't a crutch. It's the way of nature.
But I can understand why you'd take a negative view of it. One reason could be how oppressive it may be in reality. 'Black lives matter' may be an example.
The good news is that by understanding how legitimization works we can outgrow some of the disadvantages that come with it. We can learn to optimize our abilities and experiences better.
I'd be most inconsiderate not to allow you a break. I think I also need one. But before that, thank you so much for your thought and company.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Everything in the universe is limited, even the universe itself is limited. Even God, I have come to realize, is limited. So the proposition that humans are unlimited is not only false, but probably also misguided.
The reasons for my assertion are based on the evidence of laws, and form. In that all things are governed by laws, and all things are energic.
Because of this, all things will transform to other things and not just maintain what we may call immortality, but all things are reversible.
When you, @Wakanyugi says, 'we' you enter into legitimization, albeit, unconsciously. All language, all communication, even at the most basic forms of being like strings or even the most elementary particles exhibit legitimization. Legitimization isn't a crutch. It's the way of nature.
But I can understand why you'd take a negative view of it. One reason could be how oppressive it may be in reality. 'Black lives matter' may be an example.
The good news is that by understanding how legitimization works we can outgrow some of the disadvantages that come with it. We can learn to optimize our abilities and experiences better.
I'd be most inconsiderate not to allow you a break. I think I also need one. But before that, thank you so much for your thought and company. Thank you Tycho. On this note we can disagree to disagree. The unlimited self, of which I speak, needs no defender and therefore nothing more need be said on the subject. Peace "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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