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Resurrection day
masukuma
#21 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 10:47:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#22 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:02:31 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:


ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


These squiggles are very useful for us! Very legible!

Even baby class kids think class one book is a series of meaningless squiggles... So I understand your position smile smile smile
AlphDoti
#23 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:10:35 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]
Wakanyugi
#24 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:46:53 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
AlphDoti wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Once again the questions I've prompted @Alph to reconsider arise...

My definition of death is the disengagement of the soul from the body. The first outward sign is stop of breathing. But not breathing alone doesn't mean death.

As for the day when the body and soul are reunited again, I refer to this as resurrection.

Human beings (scientists) are not the owners of the law of life. Yes, they can create the environment that either sustains life or that destroys life. No scientists is able to resurrect. And they will not be able. Ever.

I still think this a rather limited definition, even from a religious point of view.

I don't know the Koran or even the Bible very well. But when I read the story of Isa and his 'death' and 'resurrection' (including the examples where he 'raised people from the dead') I am persuaded to conclude that his key lesson for us was this:

"We can conquer death, the way he did, but we must first realize that we are much more than the limits of our bodies. That we are not our bodies at all, we just wear these wonderful instruments for a while."

In fact I think there is a place Isa said something like, 'much worse than bodily death, is the death of the soul.'

Again this is not an area I am well versed in, so I admit I could be wrong.

This is for @Wakanyugi only:

ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." [Quran 5:110]

So from the above verse (there are many such verses) we learn that whatever Isa (Jesus son of Mary) did was with the permission of Allah (Almighty God).

So similarly, the dead body of Lazarus couldn't come back alive without soul put in by creator of the soul.


Thank you for this explanation. And, as I expected, you are going to get into some problems with our resident Christians Fundamentalists for daring to knock on their closed minds. Two things:

1. My explanation of what Isa's key message was is my own personal interpretation. It is certainly not shared by many Christians. I claim no real knowledge here.

2. My explanation of death and the limitation of descriptions that imply that we die when the body stops breathing, is based on my personal belief, one that I have thought about over many years and can back with some reasoned 'evidence.' Again not something shared by many including on this board.

It seems that we are in love with death, even as we claim to fear it - so much so that we have created whole belief systems, industries and philosophies around it.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
AlphDoti
#25 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:57:50 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Once again the questions I've prompted @Alph to reconsider arise...

My definition of death is the disengagement of the soul from the body. The first outward sign is stop of breathing. But not breathing alone doesn't mean death.

As for the day when the body and soul are reunited again, I refer to this as resurrection.

Human beings (scientists) are not the owners of the law of life. Yes, they can create the environment that either sustains life or that destroys life. No scientists is able to resurrect. And they will not be able. Ever.

I still think this a rather limited definition, even from a religious point of view.

I don't know the Koran or even the Bible very well. But when I read the story of Isa and his 'death' and 'resurrection' (including the examples where he 'raised people from the dead') I am persuaded to conclude that his key lesson for us was this:

"We can conquer death, the way he did, but we must first realize that we are much more than the limits of our bodies. That we are not our bodies at all, we just wear these wonderful instruments for a while."

In fact I think there is a place Isa said something like, 'much worse than bodily death, is the death of the soul.'

Again this is not an area I am well versed in, so I admit I could be wrong.

This is for @Wakanyugi only:

ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." [Quran 5:110]

So from the above verse (there are many such verses) we learn that whatever Isa (Jesus son of Mary) did was with the permission of Allah (Almighty God).

So similarly, the dead body of Lazarus couldn't come back alive without soul put in by creator of the soul.

Thank you for this explanation. And, as I expected, you are going to get into some problems with our resident Christians Fundamentalists for daring to knock on their closed minds. Two things:

1. My explanation of what Isa's key message was is my own personal interpretation. It is certainly not shared by many Christians. I claim no real knowledge here.

2. My explanation of death and the limitation of descriptions that imply that we die when the body stops breathing, is based on my personal belief, one that I have thought about over many years and can back with some reasoned 'evidence.' Again not something shared by many including on this board.

It seems that we are in love with death, even as we claim to fear it - so much so that we have created whole belief systems, industries and philosophies around it.

I'm all-round person, so let them feel free for any dialogue. Just produce your evidence.

1. Gaining knowledge is a continuous process. So keep up.

2. Be willing to learn more. Just breathing isn't living (Eleanor Porter)! And not breathing isn't necessarily dead.

And do not fear death, it's a fact. In fact it should remind you of where you will go next. Try to be prepared.
Wakanyugi
#26 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:03:47 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?


This is the same argument we had here again with Tycho playing antagonist: do stones have consciousness?'

My answer is this:

Unity expresses itself in many, many, many forms. These include as human 'being', planets, rocks, Universes and, yes, chickens. Most dimensioned realities (Earth is one) require order, including that we place a 'hierarchy' on things and events.

In our reality, unfortunately, the lowly chicken it seems is assigned a fairly low place on the totem pole (except in Luyialand of course). But this order is our creation and ultimately means nothing.

To the fragment of Unity expressing itself as chicken, I believe there is no hierarchy at all vis a vis the one expressing as Masukuma, even though one eats the other.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#27 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:08:33 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]


Me I think even animals are accountable, only in a slightly different manner to humans.

What is instinct if not accountability?

Can a chicken argue with the law of gravity, or its genetic nature or the threat from the hawk in the sky?

Is that not accountability?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
masukuma
#28 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:09:51 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]

So there is chicken paradise where everything a chicken thinks about is fulfilled? streets of layers mash? swimming in chick mash? is this in the same place near cat paradise? do cats eat rats in cat paradise? or is cat paradise rat hell? i.e. where all bad rats are sent to get punished?

This free will thing is kinda dicy! have you ever kept cattle or dogs? You can tell two cows or dogs have different "personalities". You find that one is prone to naughtiness! I remember one of my uncle's cows when pondering this point. She had bright eyes... and she would look you in a certain way before she decided to do certain naughty things. she would wait until you are almost done milking her and she would look at you and deliberately step in the milk bucket!! She had a bright eyed look! her roommate was chilled out! she did everything as expected - she was not naughty. Could we then deduce that from comparing these two cows that they have at least "plastic will"? I have also struggled to figure out - who actually coined the term "free will"... where is it found? is it a moniker representing sentience? intelligence?

On the squiggles - you pasting them here is as useful as reading the War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy to nursery kids. No one but you and I guess @kuru who understands. Ama unataka kuwa kama huyu jamaa

loving the sound of his voice and entertains himself by throwing big words at people never caring whether he is communicating or not...
Kwa ufupi - COMMUNICATE!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#29 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:14:11 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]


Me I think even animals are accountable, only in a slightly different manner to humans.

What is instinct if not accountability?

Can a chicken argue with the law of gravity, or its genetic nature or the threat from the hawk in the sky?

Is that not accountability?

@Wakanyugi you have a point. They will be accountable.

The Hadith from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (may Allah exalt his mention) said: "All the creatures will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment; animals, birds and everything else. Allah's Justice will reach everyone to the extent that the hornless animal would get its revenge from the horned one and thereafter, they would be told to become dust".
AlphDoti
#30 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:20:20 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:


ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


These squiggles are very useful for us! Very legible!

Even baby class kids think class one book is a series of meaningless squiggles... So I understand your position smile smile smile

...On the squiggles - you pasting them here is as useful as reading the War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy to nursery kids. No one but you and I guess @kuru who understands. Ama unataka kuwa kama huyu jamaa

loving the sound of his voice and entertains himself by throwing big words at people never caring whether he is communicating or not... Kwa ufupi - COMMUNICATE!

What you cannot understand does not make it squiggles. It simply means you are linguistically challenged, simply put: you are a nursery kid to some languages. Read the English part and ignore what you do not understand. But rest assured the part you do not understand is as clear as day to your fellow Christian who speaks the language.
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