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SENATE NOT REPRESENTATIVE AT ALL!!!
Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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People, while focusing on Kadhi courts, Abortion, land policy etc, we seem to have forgotten of the very lopsided structure in representation at the senate, as suggested in the draft constitution. Senate is the upper house whose clout overides that of parliament in power terms. If I got it right, Counties that sponsor/elect a Senator each will be based on Districts as we had them in the 90s or so. In that case let’s take a sneak view; Luo Nyanza with 13% of Kenyas population, has Siaya, Kisumu and south Nyanza – 3 Senators. Western 14% of Kenyans we have Busia Bungoma and Kakamega – 3 senators. Ukambani has Machakos and Kitui commanding 11% of Kenyas population – 2 senators. Greator Meru is just, Meru 6% of Kenya – 1 Senator. Greater Embu 4% Kenya - 1 Senator. Kisii and Kuria 7% of Kenya - 1 senator. Compare this with the marginal groups ( population wise, overlooking the economic (in)significance) of Northern Kenya; Together they have Isiolo, Marsabit, Moyale, Wajir, Mandera and Garissa, - a whooping 6 senate seats. Never mind that these Kenyans constitute less that 5% of the country’s population. What this means is that they have more say in the way Kenya is run than the Kamba and Luyias put together!! I thought DEMOcracy is about government by the majority, - where each vote in the senate and Parliament is fairly weighted on the numbers represented by each of the elected member. If that be so, then what we’ll have WHEN (it’s no longer a question of if) the referendum passes muster is a MINOcracy. http://en.wikipedia.org/..._ethnic_groups_in_Kenya
I don’t get it, help me understand, otherwise something got to give. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/30/2009 Posts: 1,390
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Nice point there bro.  I haven't read the thing but I heard Nairobi has 1 county.Central will have 5 counties. But aren't your figures a bit false?Do people live in their shags anymore?I see most people buying property in the cities and their suburbs thus we cant assume that western is 14% of the population while most of those guys are here in Nairobi! And if we shift it to tribal nos. instead of area populations, who will speak for Nairobi? The bottom line...the purpose of the legislature is to make laws.We elect reps coz we cant all go in and engage in decision making thus we must have some sensible ratio.Otherwise we'll have some Kenyans who have bigger voices than others What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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@Kadonye Thanks for patting my back, and presenting me a fair challenge all in the same breath, or is stroke of the pen/keyboard….. You are quite right that regions' population keep varying, as people stay on the move, in and out. For arguments sake, one may want to treat this factor as constant, since it applies across the board. For as much as people are moving out of Western part of Kenya to say Nairobi, so are people moving out of Garissa and elsewhere to Estleigh!! But then again, one may also argue that if the outflow if 15% of the region’s total, in inflow could be anywhere around 5%. Go to western and you will find fellows from Eastern, Central etc. That would then mean that the areas population is only compromised marginally. If the previous voters register is anything to go by, this remains largely the case. I didn’t mean to bring forth a ethnic contestations sort of argument, though I do realize that we need not sweep facts under the carpet, too ashamed to face them. We must begin to appreciate that Kenya has ethnic groups and that need not be evil. Bottom line; Senate is hopelessly unrepresentative. We ought to do something about it, and do so pronto. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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The section on senate 66 Membership of the Senate 98. (1) The Senate consists of— (a) forty-seven members each elected by the registered voters of the counties, each county constituting a single member constituency; (b) sixteen women members who shall be nominated by political parties according to their proportion of members of the Senate elected under clause (a) in accordance with Article 90; (c) two members, being one man and one woman, representing the youth; (d) two members, being one man and one woman, representing persons with disabilities; and (e) the Speaker, who shall be an ex officio member. (2) The members mentioned in clause (1) (c) and (d) shall be elected in accordance with Article 90. (3) Nothing in this Article shall be construed as excluding any person from contesting an election under clause (1) (a). FIRST SCHEDULE (Article 6 (1)) COUNTIES 1. Mombasa 2. Kwale 3. Kilifi 4. Tana River 5. Lamu 6. Taita/Taveta 7. Garissa 8. Wajir 9. Mandera 10. Marsabit 11. Isiolo 12. Meru . 13. Tharaka-Nithi 14. Embu 15. Kitui 16. Machakos 17. Makueni 18. Nyandarua 19. Nyeri 20. Kirinyaga 21. Murang'a 22. Kiambu 23. Turkana 24. West Pokot 25. Samburu 26. Trans Nzoia 27. Uasin Gishu 28. Elgeyo/Marakwet 29. Nandi 30. Baringo 31. Laikipia 32. Nakuru 33. Narok 34. Kajiado 35. Kericho 36. Bomet 37. Kakamega 38. Vihiga 39. Bungoma 40. Busia 41. Siaya 42. Kisumu 43. Homa Bay 44. Migori 45. Kisii 46. Nyamira 47. Nairobi City I think the counties as they are above will open up previously marginalised areas .....Since Nairobi is where all the educated and enlightened people want to be ....they can fight for themselves ....Lets have Garissa and north eastern be developed ...if the senate will have the clout and we will be able to fill our largely unpopulated country .....Also dont forget that we will now have more MPs who will represent us .....senate will be elected by voters....just as MPs....and will be in Compe with MPs.. which is good for us Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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and B.Timer Ukambani has three senators 15. Kitui 16. Machakos 17. Makueni Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/9/2008 Posts: 537
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@b timer
how many more mps will be added? i will vote no..i doubt the country can sustain all those salaries...very soon VAT will hit 32% and PAYE 50% to fund government largesse
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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Kizee....before you say No to increased MPs ...please note that the provincial administration will be restructured to accord with and respect the system of devolved government established under the new Constitution within five years after the effective date.... This will bring much savings as we will have 47 administration officials leading the 47 counties instead of 8 PCs and hundreds of DCs(I have lost track of how many Districts we have today)...... SAWA? SIXTH SCHEDULE (Article 262) TRANSITIONAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS Part 1—General Provincial Administration 17. Within five years after the effective date, the national government shall restructure the system of administration commonly known as the provincial administration to accord with and respect the system of devolved government established under this Constitution..... The tragic thing is that most of us ....have made their decisions without reading and understanding this Draft....
Please take you time to read the Draft ....and ask where you dont understand.....Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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@ Fundah I stand corrected on the number of senate seats in some of the regions. However, Embu's population is more or less equal to the total of Isiolo, Marsabit, Moyale, Wajir, Manera and Garissa put togerther. While Embu has a meek 1 senate position, the others command 6 seats between themselves. That's undemocratic. To argue that since they've since been under-developed, then its okay for them to carry 'VETO' power in the senate is to miss the point. Senate will make major decisions on the trajectory that Kenya will take from time to time. Such a body need be as representative as humanly possible under the circumstances. We shouldnt have a situation of rule by the minority over the majority!!! That my point. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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Please also consider the Land area covered by the Isiolo, Marsabit, Moyale, Wajir, Mandera and Garissa( remember isiolo is the center of Kenya!!!!!) put together..... and compare that with Embu... Develop that area and people being mobile and with freedom of movement guaranteed....the population will exceed Embu.... As I said Kenya is largely ...Underpopulated .....by underdevelopment in some regions ....yet we have unexploited resources in those regions Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/9/2008 Posts: 537
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Fundaah wrote:Kizee....before you say No to increased MPs ...please note that the provincial administration will be restructured to accord with and respect the system of devolved government
established under the new Constitution within five years after the effective date....
This will bring much savings as we will have 47 administration officials leading the 47 counties instead of 8 PCs and hundreds of DCs(I have lost track of how many Districts we have today)......
SAWA?
SIXTH SCHEDULE
(Article 262)
TRANSITIONAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS
Part 1—General
Provincial Administration
17. Within five years after the effective date, the national government shall
restructure the system of administration commonly known as the provincial
administration to accord with and respect the system of devolved government
established under this Constitution.....
The tragic thing is that most of us ....have made their decisions without reading and understanding this Draft....
Please take you time to read the Draft ....and ask where you dont understand..... how will getting rid of 8 pcs cut costs? i really doubt a country with a population of 40million needs that many layers of fat...please explain to me where the money to fund this largesse will come from?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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kizee wrote:[quote=Fundaah]
how will getting rid of 8 pcs cut costs? Did you forget that I said 8 Pcs and Hundreds of DC ..add that to thousands of DOs....and you know the immense resources which are at disposal to the mentioned .....not forgetting corruption in those offices .....no savings Yet? Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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@ B timer also remember that 124 Part 4— The boundaries of counties
Boundaries of counties188. The boundaries of a county may be altered only by a resolution–– (a) recommended by an independent commission set up for that purpose by Parliament; and (b) passed by–– (i) the National Assembly with the support of at least twothirds of all of the members of the Assembly; and (ii) the Senate with the support of at least two-thirds of all of the county delegations. (2) The boundaries of a county may be altered to take into account— (a) population density and demographic trends; (b) physical and human infrastructure; (c) historical and cultural ties; (d) the cost of administration; (e) the views of the communities affected; (f) the objects of devolution of government; and (g) geographical features. Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/19/2008 Posts: 60
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Did you forget that I said 8 Pcs and Hundreds of DC ..add that to thousands of DOs....and you know the immense resources which are at disposal to the mentioned .....not forgetting corruption in those offices .....no savings Yet?
[/quote]
The fact of life is that the provincial administration wont go home , they will be deployed to other sections of goverment. So as a matter of fact the counties are additional cost.
It would have made sense if local govts were scraped off.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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Soko tele wrote:
they will be deployed to other sections of goverment. So as a matter of fact the counties are additional cost.
and those other sections could be in the counties ..so no additional costs since the provincial adm will have just moved to the counties... Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/19/2008 Posts: 60
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Fundaah wrote:Soko tele wrote:
they will be deployed to other sections of goverment. So as a matter of fact the counties are additional cost.
and those other sections could be in the counties ..so no additional costs since the provincial adm will have just moved to the counties... Can any one tell me the cost implication of the new draft.. . . . . .
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/30/2009 Posts: 141
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@Fundaah, you are a very patient person. There is a history to the number of counties and it is not the fault of the COE. The PSC, mpigs would not agree to the number of counties and the formulae of how to distribute them. So this was left to the current District structure. It is now up to Kenyans such as Btimer and others to follow the procedure laid out to create more or less counties. A constitution is supposed to be a living being. If Kenyans cannot organise themselves to change the number of counties and their distribution, they cannot blame the draft. There are two options here: 1. have the power as a citizen to determine how the counties and resources will be distributed, or 2. Stick with the current constitution and let Baba Moi, Kibaki, Raila or Ruto decide for you where the new county will be. History has shown that option 2 has not worked. Hata wakizima taa
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/30/2009 Posts: 1,390
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Haki KimeumanaBut first @ Fundaah, u deserve a thumbs up. You argue with excerpts from the draft.How can I get a copy whether in soft or hard? It has now become clear to me why people are saying no.The more info I get on this katiba, the more I edge closer to a NO(THANX FUNDAAH) Sister, u get it wrong when u tell us that northern Kenya is marginalised n tht's why they should get more senators. As I have argued before in this forum (& on post 2 above) the legislature exists to make laws and represent citizenry who cant all fit in the chambers where laws are made. So if a county will have 1000 citizens while another has 1 million, The 1000 citizens will have a much bigger voice than the 1million!This is not democracy. But u have a point in resource allocation per area but shouldnt a place like Nairobi have 8 senators(though 1 county)? N by the way how will resourcs be shares among counties?equally?demographically? I dint like that part where it says Women will get 18 free seats.What if 35 out of 47 senators are women?I now understand Nderitu Njoka! What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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@ Kadonye and all...You can download a copy from the link below ....under related downloads http://www.nation.co.ke/.../-/x4urqkz/-/index.html
Please Take your time to read it . Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/13/2008 Posts: 558
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Anyone thinking that democracy exists, then he/she should know that it only exists in papers. Yaani theory. In real world there is nothing like democracy.
As said previously in a different thread, wheather you vote yes or No, the thing will go through. So why vote?. Its like voting in Sudan last week, what do people expect?. Bashir to loose??.
Same scenario in the katiba debate. Does anyone honestly thinks that the No vote will win? and the so called principals loose?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/11/2008 Posts: 2,306
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Jaina, Someone lost the vote in 05, and they were president. Great men are not always wise, neither do the aged understand judgement...
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SENATE NOT REPRESENTATIVE AT ALL!!!
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