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Centum FY2016 div comeback 1/- net profit +25%
murchr
#141 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 8:32:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
No one here is surprised. It's been the norm for centum
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
researchfirst
#142 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 8:39:03 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
No one here is surprised. It's been the norm for centum


Of course it is the norm, it is their stated policy. That's my point.
murchr
#143 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 8:40:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
No one here is surprised. It's been the norm for centum


Of course it is the norm, it is their stated policy. That's my point.


The discussion is on the stupid policy of awarding employees at the expense of owners. Classic case of agency theory
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
mkate_nusu
#144 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 8:48:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Kayole
Very true

What is the 'Agency Theory'
The agency theory is a supposition that explains the relationship between principals and agents in business. Agency theory is concerned with resolving problems that can exist in agency relationships; that is, between principals (such as shareholders) and agents of the principals (for example, company executives). The two problems that agency theory addresses are:
1.) the problems that arise when the desires or goals of the principal and agent are in conflict, and the principal is unable to verify (because it difficult and/or expensive to do so) what the agent is actually doing; and
2.) the problems that arise when the principal and agent have different attitudes towards risk. Because of different risk tolerances, the principal and agent may each be inclined to take different actions.



Read more: Here
KEGN, KPLC, KQ, SCOM
guru267
#145 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 9:16:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
researchfirst
#146 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 9:25:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


I agree completely. All salaries, bonuses, etc. are, by definition, "at the expense" of owners. There is always a balance to be struck between who gets what. I think this balance is working, which is why I am an owner. For those of you who are not, Centum's share price has always tracked NAV closely. It is now trading at around 20% less than NAV per share. This is a no-brainer investment.
enyands
#147 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 9:32:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,300
Location: kenya
What wealth has grown if it has not been showing on the dividends and share price? What they have been doing is growing their employee wealth that's the bottom line .

Infact my share is way less than what I bought. If you bought yours earlier when it was 16 lucky you.So when you talk about wealth then heaven speak to me as a shareholder since I see no wealth in my dry bank account.EXCEPT that the wealth of 1 billion going to employees last year and 600m this year.Hope you got your answer .So explain to me like a baby who is about to be done crying what wealth you are talking of that has be grown,of which you can say yes this is mine ,if not silent be it ...
murchr
#148 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 10:09:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


How much has management given to shareholders? Hio ndio shida.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
enyands
#149 Posted : Thursday, June 09, 2016 11:29:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,300
Location: kenya
murchr wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


How much has management given to shareholders? Hio ndio shida.



DJ Bags 200M
guru267
#150 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 7:03:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
enyands wrote:
murchr wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


How much has management given to shareholders? Hio ndio shida.



DJ Bags 200M


To consider dividend as the only source of return is narrow thinking...


Also From management's point of view... Would I rather pay bonus to retain a key return generating staff member or pay dividends to retain a cry baby Wanjiku shareholder... Its a no brainer

Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
watesh
#151 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 8:33:44 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/10/2014
Posts: 977
Location: Kenya
enyands wrote:
murchr wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


How much has management given to shareholders? Hio ndio shida.



DJ Bags 200M

Around 17m per month from just one company, what does he even do with all that money? He should now ship in a couple of Bentleys as escort cars for his Maybach
researchfirst
#152 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 9:07:46 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
enyands wrote:
What wealth has grown if it has not been showing on the dividends and share price? What they have been doing is growing their employee wealth that's the bottom line .

Infact my share is way less than what I bought. If you bought yours earlier when it was 16 lucky you.So when you talk about wealth then heaven speak to me as a shareholder since I see no wealth in my dry bank account.EXCEPT that the wealth of 1 billion going to employees last year and 600m this year.Hope you got your answer .So explain to me like a baby who is about to be done crying what wealth you are talking of that has be grown,of which you can say yes this is mine ,if not silent be it ...


The wealth is there it is just currently undervalued. Since you asked for a simple explanation, I will give one: market value and book value are not the same thing. Sometimes there is a pricing mismatch, as there is today. Centum’s NAV is a conservative estimate of the intrinsic value of the company and the share price is way below this level. This is the textbook definition of an undervalued company and, therefore, a fantastic buying opportunity. If everyone recognized the value of the company, and the price reflected it, it would not be. If you bought when the company was overvalued or even fairly valued, then life is hard right now. But only if you want/need to sell. If you hang on to the stock or, preferably, buy into it more, you will do very, very well.

Personally, I would rather have seen a share buyback than a dividend. If the company's board and management think the company is undervalued, as I am sure they do, they should have proposed a Shs 600m share buyback. I would have held mine, realising a paper gain. You would, presumably, have sold yours, realising a real gain. And we both would have been happier.
Spikes
#153 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 9:44:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
researchfirst wrote:
enyands wrote:
What wealth has grown if it has not been showing on the dividends and share price? What they have been doing is growing their employee wealth that's the bottom line .

Infact my share is way less than what I bought. If you bought yours earlier when it was 16 lucky you.So when you talk about wealth then heaven speak to me as a shareholder since I see no wealth in my dry bank account.EXCEPT that the wealth of 1 billion going to employees last year and 600m this year.Hope you got your answer .So explain to me like a baby who is about to be done crying what wealth you are talking of that has be grown,of which you can say yes this is mine ,if not silent be it ...


The wealth is there it is just currently undervalued. Since you asked for a simple explanation, I will give one: market value and book value are not the same thing. Sometimes there is a pricing mismatch, as there is today. Centum’s NAV is a conservative estimate of the intrinsic value of the company and the share price is way below this level. This is the textbook definition of an undervalued company and, therefore, a fantastic buying opportunity. If everyone recognized the value of the company, and the price reflected it, it would not be. If you bought when the company was overvalued or even fairly valued, then life is hard right now. But only if you want/need to sell. If you hang on to the stock or, preferably, buy into it more, you will do very, very well.

Personally, I would rather have seen a share buyback than a dividend. If the company's board and management think the company is undervalued, as I am sure they do, they should have proposed a Shs 600m share buyback. I would have held mine, realising a paper gain. You would, presumably, have sold yours, realising a real gain. And we both would have been happier.


In Kenya there is no law on share buyback. It was curtailed by AG last year.
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
VituVingiSana
#154 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 9:44:30 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
enyands wrote:
murchr wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


How much has management given to shareholders? Hio ndio shida.



DJ Bags 200M


To consider dividend as the only source of return is narrow thinking...


Also From management's point of view... Would I rather pay bonus to retain a key return generating staff member or pay dividends to retain a cry baby Wanjiku shareholder... Its a no brainer


Applause Applause Applause
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#155 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 10:02:27 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
researchfirst wrote:
enyands wrote:
What wealth has grown if it has not been showing on the dividends and share price? What they have been doing is growing their employee wealth that's the bottom line .

Infact my share is way less than what I bought. If you bought yours earlier when it was 16 lucky you.So when you talk about wealth then heaven speak to me as a shareholder since I see no wealth in my dry bank account.EXCEPT that the wealth of 1 billion going to employees last year and 600m this year.Hope you got your answer .So explain to me like a baby who is about to be done crying what wealth you are talking of that has be grown,of which you can say yes this is mine ,if not silent be it ...


The wealth is there it is just currently undervalued. Since you asked for a simple explanation, I will give one: market value and book value are not the same thing. Sometimes there is a pricing mismatch, as there is today. Centum’s NAV is a conservative estimate of the intrinsic value of the company and the share price is way below this level. This is the textbook definition of an undervalued company and, therefore, a fantastic buying opportunity. If everyone recognized the value of the company, and the price reflected it, it would not be. If you bought when the company was overvalued or even fairly valued, then life is hard right now. But only if you want/need to sell. If you hang on to the stock or, preferably, buy into it more, you will do very, very well.

Personally, I would rather have seen a share buyback than a dividend. If the company's board and management think the company is undervalued, as I am sure they do, they should have proposed a Shs 600m share buyback. I would have held mine, realising a paper gain. You would, presumably, have sold yours, realising a real gain. And we both would have been happier.

Applause Applause Applause Warren Buffett's thoughts!
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
ngapat
#156 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 10:02:49 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 884
researchfirst wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


I agree completely. All salaries, bonuses, etc. are, by definition, "at the expense" of owners. There is always a balance to be struck between who gets what. I think this balance is working, which is why I am an owner. For those of you who are not, Centum's share price has always tracked NAV closely. It is now trading at around 20% less than NAV per share. This is a no-brainer investment.

You could be creating wealth for share holders while unfairly stealing from them. Are they employees or fund managers?
Centum employees are paid salaries which i can assure are no peanuts and are in tandem with their contributions to the groups growth. I do agree on bonus payment for excellent results but their style of bonus pay is outright thuggery. The bonuses should be a fixed amount or a percentage of their salaries.
Awarding bonuses as a percentage of a company's profit can lead to enormous bonus figures and is simply doubling as an employee and a fund manager who are paid management fee based on portfolio returns.
Its unfair that bonuses to employees exceeds dividends to all shareholders.
As much as the employees credit themselves for the good performance, credit should also go to shareholders for providing the capital.
I see these employees becoming bigger than the company one day.
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
researchfirst
#157 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 10:08:19 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
Spikes wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
enyands wrote:
What wealth has grown if it has not been showing on the dividends and share price? What they have been doing is growing their employee wealth that's the bottom line .

Infact my share is way less than what I bought. If you bought yours earlier when it was 16 lucky you.So when you talk about wealth then heaven speak to me as a shareholder since I see no wealth in my dry bank account.EXCEPT that the wealth of 1 billion going to employees last year and 600m this year.Hope you got your answer .So explain to me like a baby who is about to be done crying what wealth you are talking of that has be grown,of which you can say yes this is mine ,if not silent be it ...


The wealth is there it is just currently undervalued. Since you asked for a simple explanation, I will give one: market value and book value are not the same thing. Sometimes there is a pricing mismatch, as there is today. Centum’s NAV is a conservative estimate of the intrinsic value of the company and the share price is way below this level. This is the textbook definition of an undervalued company and, therefore, a fantastic buying opportunity. If everyone recognized the value of the company, and the price reflected it, it would not be. If you bought when the company was overvalued or even fairly valued, then life is hard right now. But only if you want/need to sell. If you hang on to the stock or, preferably, buy into it more, you will do very, very well.

Personally, I would rather have seen a share buyback than a dividend. If the company's board and management think the company is undervalued, as I am sure they do, they should have proposed a Shs 600m share buyback. I would have held mine, realising a paper gain. You would, presumably, have sold yours, realising a real gain. And we both would have been happier.


In Kenya there is no law on share buyback. It was curtailed by AG last year.


AG delayed gazetting the clause on buybacks in November, but it isn't necessarily dead. Very strong case for it and a lot of companies would like to use it (e.g. SCOM, UNGA, KPLC, TOTL, HFCK).
researchfirst
#158 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 10:18:19 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
ngapat wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


I agree completely. All salaries, bonuses, etc. are, by definition, "at the expense" of owners. There is always a balance to be struck between who gets what. I think this balance is working, which is why I am an owner. For those of you who are not, Centum's share price has always tracked NAV closely. It is now trading at around 20% less than NAV per share. This is a no-brainer investment.

You could be creating wealth for share holders while unfairly stealing from them. Are they employees or fund managers?
Centum employees are paid salaries which i can assure are no peanuts and are in tandem with their contributions to the groups growth. I do agree on bonus payment for excellent results but their style of bonus pay is outright thuggery. The bonuses should be a fixed amount or a percentage of their salaries.
Awarding bonuses as a percentage of a company's profit can lead to enormous bonus figures and is simply doubling as an employee and a fund manager who are paid management fee based on portfolio returns.
Its unfair that bonuses to employees exceeds dividends to all shareholders.
As much as the employees credit themselves for the good performance, credit should also go to shareholders for providing the capital.
I see these employees becoming bigger than the company one day.


To date they have been very similar to fund managers so a fund manager-like bonus system makes sense. A fixed amount bonus does not, it creates no incentive for maximum performance 'just good enough to get the bonus' performance. The hurdle rate model works globally and it looks like it is working at Centum. As the company shifts its focus to more of a conglomerate style group, the bonus system will probably need to be rethought.

As for the shareholder credit for providing capital, see my post on the NAV per share relative to market price. The reward will come.
ngapat
#159 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 10:43:48 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 884
researchfirst wrote:
ngapat wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


I agree completely. All salaries, bonuses, etc. are, by definition, "at the expense" of owners. There is always a balance to be struck between who gets what. I think this balance is working, which is why I am an owner. For those of you who are not, Centum's share price has always tracked NAV closely. It is now trading at around 20% less than NAV per share. This is a no-brainer investment.

You could be creating wealth for share holders while unfairly stealing from them. Are they employees or fund managers?
Centum employees are paid salaries which i can assure are no peanuts and are in tandem with their contributions to the groups growth. I do agree on bonus payment for excellent results but their style of bonus pay is outright thuggery. The bonuses should be a fixed amount or a percentage of their salaries.
Awarding bonuses as a percentage of a company's profit can lead to enormous bonus figures and is simply doubling as an employee and a fund manager who are paid management fee based on portfolio returns.
Its unfair that bonuses to employees exceeds dividends to all shareholders.
As much as the employees credit themselves for the good performance, credit should also go to shareholders for providing the capital.
I see these employees becoming bigger than the company one day.


To date they have been very similar to fund managers so a fund manager-like bonus system makes sense. A fixed amount bonus does not, it creates no incentive for maximum performance 'just good enough to get the bonus' performance. The hurdle rate model works globally and it looks like it is working at Centum. As the company shifts its focus to more of a conglomerate style group, the bonus system will probably need to be rethought.

As for the shareholder credit for providing capital, see my post on the NAV per share relative to market price. The reward will come.


The NAV was criticized here as it can easily be manipulated by revaluation of assets like land. Centum has been exiting some of their investments and booking capital gains driving the NAV up. Some of these investments were bought even before some employees joined the company and they are taking credit for them.
I would prefer ROA and ROE.
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
guru267
#160 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2016 11:02:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
ngapat wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
ngapat wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Management paid themselves a bonus of less than 10% of PBT... What's the big deal? This is the market average isnt it???

This same management has worked their butts off to grow shareholder wealth over the years..

Some cry baby is selling shares because of that... All I say is Sayonara!!


I agree completely. All salaries, bonuses, etc. are, by definition, "at the expense" of owners. There is always a balance to be struck between who gets what. I think this balance is working, which is why I am an owner. For those of you who are not, Centum's share price has always tracked NAV closely. It is now trading at around 20% less than NAV per share. This is a no-brainer investment.

You could be creating wealth for share holders while unfairly stealing from them. Are they employees or fund managers?
Centum employees are paid salaries which i can assure are no peanuts and are in tandem with their contributions to the groups growth. I do agree on bonus payment for excellent results but their style of bonus pay is outright thuggery. The bonuses should be a fixed amount or a percentage of their salaries.
Awarding bonuses as a percentage of a company's profit can lead to enormous bonus figures and is simply doubling as an employee and a fund manager who are paid management fee based on portfolio returns.
Its unfair that bonuses to employees exceeds dividends to all shareholders.
As much as the employees credit themselves for the good performance, credit should also go to shareholders for providing the capital.
I see these employees becoming bigger than the company one day.


To date they have been very similar to fund managers so a fund manager-like bonus system makes sense. A fixed amount bonus does not, it creates no incentive for maximum performance 'just good enough to get the bonus' performance. The hurdle rate model works globally and it looks like it is working at Centum. As the company shifts its focus to more of a conglomerate style group, the bonus system will probably need to be rethought.

As for the shareholder credit for providing capital, see my post on the NAV per share relative to market price. The reward will come.


The NAV was criticized here as it can easily be manipulated by revaluation of assets like land. Centum has been exiting some of their investments and booking capital gains driving the NAV up. Some of these investments were bought even before some employees joined the company and they are taking credit for them.
I would prefer ROA and ROE.


Is it not the current employees who enable Centum to exit its investments at a gain?

Both ROA and ROE are good for centum.
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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