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Briatm, Britam, Britam sounds like sweet candy!
murchr
#681 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 5:46:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
researchfirst
#682 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 6:41:41 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.
murchr
#683 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 6:47:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
researchfirst
#684 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 7:30:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee


To your second point, I also think Jubilee is undervalued but only by about 15% from a fair value price. Kenre is a great company and has undoubtedly been a good investment for people who bought when it was undervalued, but I think it is fairly valued at its current price.

Britam had/has the edge for me because, as a result of the Rawat issue, its price became hugely undervalued. In short, much more room to run up than the others. So far, having purchased at an average cost of 10.75, I have been exactly right. As I said previously in this thread, it will be fairly valued at around 18 which is what I am confident it will hit this year.

Even when it hits 18, I will probably hold it (unless I find something with even more potential and need some capital). This gets to your first point. I believe the company's core insurance business is very strong with excellent prospects. They need to do some restructuring work on their investment portfolio to smooth out some of the volatility, but this is relatively easy to do, particularly when the management acknowledges the need and pledges to do so. I am confident they have the ability to execute.
murchr
#685 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 7:38:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee


To your second point, I also think Jubilee is undervalued but only by about 15% from a fair value price. Kenre is a great company and has undoubtedly been a good investment for people who bought when it was undervalued, but I think it is fairly valued at its current price.


Britam had/has the edge for me because, as a result of the Rawat issue, its price became hugely undervalued. In short, much more room to run up than the others. So far, having purchased at an average cost of 10.75, I have been exactly right. As I said previously in this thread, it will be fairly valued at around 18 which is what I am confident it will hit this year.

Even when it hits 18, I will probably hold it (unless I find something with even more potential and need some capital). This gets to your first point. I believe the company's core insurance business is very strong with excellent prospects. They need to do some restructuring work on their investment portfolio to smooth out some of the volatility, but this is relatively easy to do, particularly when the management acknowledges the need and pledges to do so. I am confident they have the ability to execute.



You do not know how to value firms.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
researchfirst
#686 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 7:57:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee


To your second point, I also think Jubilee is undervalued but only by about 15% from a fair value price. Kenre is a great company and has undoubtedly been a good investment for people who bought when it was undervalued, but I think it is fairly valued at its current price.


Britam had/has the edge for me because, as a result of the Rawat issue, its price became hugely undervalued. In short, much more room to run up than the others. So far, having purchased at an average cost of 10.75, I have been exactly right. As I said previously in this thread, it will be fairly valued at around 18 which is what I am confident it will hit this year.

Even when it hits 18, I will probably hold it (unless I find something with even more potential and need some capital). This gets to your first point. I believe the company's core insurance business is very strong with excellent prospects. They need to do some restructuring work on their investment portfolio to smooth out some of the volatility, but this is relatively easy to do, particularly when the management acknowledges the need and pledges to do so. I am confident they have the ability to execute.



You do not know how to value firms.

Confident in my methodology and models, but you are welcome to your opinion. What is your intrinsic value on KNRE and JUB?
murchr
#687 Posted : Friday, May 27, 2016 8:18:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee


To your second point, I also think Jubilee is undervalued but only by about 15% from a fair value price. Kenre is a great company and has undoubtedly been a good investment for people who bought when it was undervalued, but I think it is fairly valued at its current price.


Britam had/has the edge for me because, as a result of the Rawat issue, its price became hugely undervalued. In short, much more room to run up than the others. So far, having purchased at an average cost of 10.75, I have been exactly right. As I said previously in this thread, it will be fairly valued at around 18 which is what I am confident it will hit this year.

Even when it hits 18, I will probably hold it (unless I find something with even more potential and need some capital). This gets to your first point. I believe the company's core insurance business is very strong with excellent prospects. They need to do some restructuring work on their investment portfolio to smooth out some of the volatility, but this is relatively easy to do, particularly when the management acknowledges the need and pledges to do so. I am confident they have the ability to execute.



You do not know how to value firms.

Confident in my methodology and models, but you are welcome to your opinion. What is your intrinsic value on KNRE and JUB?



KNRE Should be trading at Ksh40-50+ Jub is fairly valued at 484.

Knre at 21/- is trading at EPS = 5.1 and trailing PE of 4.1 - (dirt cheap) thats why VVS has his money here .

Jubilee is fairly valued at 484 - its EPS is 42 bob and trailing PE of 11.

CIC is also fairly valued at 5/-, its EPS is 0.43 and PE 11

So is Liberty at 15.00 EPS 1.3 bob and PE of 10.xy is also fairly valued.

What did 1 britam share earn you?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
hisah
#688 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 11:41:13 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.

$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
Spikes
#689 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 12:05:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
researchfirst
#690 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 1:06:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."
mlennyma
#691 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 5:04:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,183
Location: nairobi
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."

I really don't want to see them,they made me miss britam at 10.90,i could have bought and sold at 16.50 now I could be praying to board it for a second ride
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
murchr
#692 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 5:10:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."



Britam is poor fundamentally, you better rely on cartoons to follow the pump-dump movements if you have an intention of making cheddar here.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Ericsson
#693 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 6:53:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,699
Location: NAIROBI
Britam a few years back wanted to buy 30% stake in Continental Reinsurance Kenya.
What happened to the transaction?
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
mkate_nusu
#694 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 8:45:31 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Kayole
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
murchr wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Going back to 10 bob smile



It was just speculation! Nothing good in this stock. Still directors and managers are quiet on controversial Dawood Rawat's stake. We are not on the know how much it was sold and at what price.


Disagree on all counts. Still a fundamentally undervalued stock. Buyers are coming back in today after a one day pullback that saw some profit taking after an enormous and quick rally. Bid/Ask is currently at 35/65 and has been rising. The stock will hit 18 minimum this year. Mark my words.

As for Rawat's stake, who cares? I have no idea why @spikes is obsessed with this. Mauritian government was a seller under pressure for reasons that had nothing to do with the company, its operations, its prospects, or its leadership but rather with political pressures to compensate people in Mauritius from Rawat's assets. The price they got has no bearing on the company's value. I would love to have been in a position to negotiate with a seller like them.



Care to explain that?


The whole market tanked in 2015, but Britam's particularly massive plunge was caused by the market's reaction to an external event that had no effect on the company's business or future prospects (i.e. a major shareholder's activities outside the company). In my opinion, the market's reaction to something immaterial created a mispricing.

The rules and principles of accounting further exacerbated this mispricing. Conservatism is an accounting convention which requires an immediate recognition of losses (e.g., impairment charges) but delayed recognition of profits; losses are often recognised when anticipated, while profits are recognised when earned.

In Britam's case, the fair value investment losses reported are misleading. They were not paper losses attributable to bad management of an investment portfolio, they were primarily attributable to two strategic investments (i.e. Equity and HF). There are a lot of reasons why these two relationships, regardless of short term price movements, are good for the future earning potential of the company. Even setting that aside, the management has said they recognise their over exposure to listed equities and have said they are diversifying their portfolio. Good.

So that's the first bit. The second bit is that Britam's IT investment over the past few years (if the annual reports and investor briefings are to be believed) have been massive and directed specifically at making their core business more efficient and, therefore, profitable. It appears to be working. The company's core business looked good in the latest numbers. You couple that with their expansion across the region and into Southern Africa (e.g. Malawi) and things really start looking good. Just look at the numbers.

Finally, Britam is too small to attract any real overseas institutional investor interest so price is more subject to the moods, whims, and speculation of little guys who get overexcited and then panic without doing any analysis. In the end, I think Britam is a very good investment. But if you are looking to jump in and jump out, timing the market perfectly, good luck to you! It's not for me. I am holding this stock until it become overvalued which, given current numbers, is a very long way off.


Now now, isn't that just the reason why Britam is a shaky investment? If the stock's success depends on the two stock investments and not their key business "insurance", what is fundamentally right about it?


It is a volatile investment, not a bad one. All insurance companies, globally, rise and fall with the performance of their investments. Britam is no exception.

What I am arguing is that in Britam's case they have two big listed equity investments that serve a broader purpose than capital gain and dividend income. They are strategic and, presumably, long term investments (e.g. provide sales channels, etc.). As a result, a drop in their share prices (along with the rest of the market), although making a big difference on paper in the short term, makes no difference in the long term. Do you think Equity Bank, for example, has no future?

The stock's success in the short term and the company's success in the long term (and therefore, ultimately, the stock's) are two different things. The insurance industry is going to see consolidation, just like the banking industry. Britam's core insurance business looks very good and the company is well positioned to take advantage of consolidation. Given the Rawat nonsense and the unique nature of their balance sheet, they are underpriced.


My argument is you can not say a business is "fundamentally" sound because the (paper value) of these investments in other businesses are doing fine. Britam will be fundamentally sound when its core business is making money.

Look compare Britam to its peers Kenre and Jubilee


To your second point, I also think Jubilee is undervalued but only by about 15% from a fair value price. Kenre is a great company and has undoubtedly been a good investment for people who bought when it was undervalued, but I think it is fairly valued at its current price.


Britam had/has the edge for me because, as a result of the Rawat issue, its price became hugely undervalued. In short, much more room to run up than the others. So far, having purchased at an average cost of 10.75, I have been exactly right. As I said previously in this thread, it will be fairly valued at around 18 which is what I am confident it will hit this year.

Even when it hits 18, I will probably hold it (unless I find something with even more potential and need some capital). This gets to your first point. I believe the company's core insurance business is very strong with excellent prospects. They need to do some restructuring work on their investment portfolio to smooth out some of the volatility, but this is relatively easy to do, particularly when the management acknowledges the need and pledges to do so. I am confident they have the ability to execute.



You do not know how to value firms.

Confident in my methodology and models, but you are welcome to your opinion. What is your intrinsic value on KNRE and JUB?



KNRE Should be trading at Ksh40-50+ Jub is fairly valued at 484.

Knre at 21/- is trading at EPS = 5.1 and trailing PE of 4.1 - (dirt cheap) thats why VVS has his money here .

Jubilee is fairly valued at 484 - its EPS is 42 bob and trailing PE of 11.

CIC is also fairly valued at 5/-, its EPS is 0.43 and PE 11

So is Liberty at 15.00 EPS 1.3 bob and PE of 10.xy is also fairly valued.

What did 1 britam share earn you?


murchr 10 - researchfirst nil
KEGN, KPLC, KQ, SCOM
Spikes
#695 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 9:28:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
mlennyma wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."

I really don't want to see them,they made me miss britam at 10.90,i could have bought and sold at 16.50 now I could be praying to board it for a second ride



Even if I missed a chance just like you at10.9, I have learnt with profound certainty that cartoons reveal the truth about market psychology. One gospel truth I have mastered more than Warren Buffet is that most Wazuans don't understand how to apply charts. Technical analysis is deeper than a casual observation on graphics. It is applied Mathematics in use folks.
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
Spikes
#696 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 9:51:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
Spikes wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."

I really don't want to see them,they made me miss britam at 10.90,i could have bought and sold at 16.50 now I could be praying to board it for a second ride



Even if I missed a chance just like you at10.9, I have learnt with profound certainty that cartoons reveal the truth about market psychology. One gospel truth I have mastered more than Warren Buffet is that most Wazuans don't understand how to apply charts. Technical analysis is deeper than a casual observation on graphics. It is applied Mathematics in use folks.




http://www.businessdaily...1/-/20edrb/-/index.html


Things have started falling apart! The above story paints shocking revelations about how Britam is run like a personal property. It is very terrible!!!
@hisah last week warned that a sharp plunge is likely if bad news hits this stock. Clearly, it has come to pass!
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
Realtreaty
#697 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 11:22:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/16/2011
Posts: 2,297
Spikes wrote:
Spikes wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."

I really don't want to see them,they made me miss britam at 10.90,i could have bought and sold at 16.50 now I could be praying to board it for a second ride



Even if I missed a chance just like you at10.9, I have learnt with profound certainty that cartoons reveal the truth about market psychology. One gospel truth I have mastered more than Warren Buffet is that most Wazuans don't understand how to apply charts. Technical analysis is deeper than a casual observation on graphics. It is applied Mathematics in use folks.





http://www.businessdaily...1/-/20edrb/-/index.html


Things have started falling apart! The above story paints shocking revelations about how Britam is run like a personal property. It is very terrible!!!
@hisah last week warned that a sharp plunge is likely if bad news hits this stock. Clearly, it has come to pass!


smile @ Spikes, before the fall, I said I visited my Broker who told me there have been massive sale order to reap on capital gain, nothing more truth than that. These were Makangas alighting at their base and the Conduct realized the real customers were few.There will be price correction as some orders have been cancelled after the dunk.Laughing out loudly
mkate_nusu
#698 Posted : Monday, May 30, 2016 11:55:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Kayole
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


Ideal shorting candidate respecting the principles of technical trading . 10 support will be broken like an egg. EMA(100) resistance was hardly tested. No volume between the previous trough and peak. What shall support it at 10? researchfirst and co. increasing their holdings?
KEGN, KPLC, KQ, SCOM
Spikes
#699 Posted : Tuesday, May 31, 2016 9:01:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
Realtreaty wrote:
Spikes wrote:
Spikes wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
Spikes wrote:
hisah wrote:
What does the BRIT cartoon say? Moving average EMA 100 and WMA 100 gauges have rejected the bulls resulting in a bearish weekly pin-bar candlestick. Target SMA 20 at 12.45. The 61.8% fibo rebound rally from the 10 handle was on vapour volume. Still remains a golden handcuff play until I see accumulative supportive volume plays. Let's see if the 10 handle will stall the expected bear pressure strength.




This is the problem inherent for speculating on a stock without substantial volume. Inaporomoka from the peak kama chapati ambayo imekauka bila mafuta.


These cartoons are useless. To quote Warren Buffett, "I realized that technical analysis didn't work when I turned the chart upside down and didn't get a different answer."

I really don't want to see them,they made me miss britam at 10.90,i could have bought and sold at 16.50 now I could be praying to board it for a second ride



Even if I missed a chance just like you at10.9, I have learnt with profound certainty that cartoons reveal the truth about market psychology. One gospel truth I have mastered more than Warren Buffet is that most Wazuans don't understand how to apply charts. Technical analysis is deeper than a casual observation on graphics. It is applied Mathematics in use folks.





http://www.businessdaily...1/-/20edrb/-/index.html


Things have started falling apart! The above story paints shocking revelations about how Britam is run like a personal property. It is very terrible!!!
@hisah last week warned that a sharp plunge is likely if bad news hits this stock. Clearly, it has come to pass!


smile @ Spikes, before the fall, I said I visited my Broker who told me there have been massive sale order to reap on capital gain, nothing more truth than that. These were Makangas alighting at their base and the Conduct realized the real customers were few.There will be price correction as some orders have been cancelled after the dunk.Laughing out loudly




@Realtreaty cancel sale orders now but you will be forced to place them again at lower prices than the current sub 15/-.
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
researchfirst
#700 Posted : Tuesday, May 31, 2016 9:16:07 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
This discussion is becoming ridiculous. Actually read the article in BD, there are no "shocking revelations" and there is absolutely nothing in it to indicate that "Brtiam is run like a personal property." Some wazuans in this discussion are just upset that they bailed too early on the stock and are now (and have been for a while) desperately trying to talk the stock down to buy back in. It has not worked so far and is not going to work. Britam is an undervalued stock with a promising future. It will hit 18 this year.
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