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Just How Big the Universe is
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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This thread should be renamed to "nit picking" All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:This thread should be renamed to "nit picking" You seem to have renamed it already in your 'sukuma-verse'. I hope the nits make you happy...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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masukuma wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:masukuma wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, the other day I drew a conclusion that may seem 'fantastic' or even offensive to some: Knowledge is and has been constant through the ages and across the universe, but the metaphors and the rates at which human experience has been reconciled to metaphor has varied.
Tycho, This is deep and I have to think about it. But I am already tempted to agree with you. After all I subscribe to the hierarchy of: data - information - knowledge. Knowledge therefore is data and information given meaning. We are surrounded by data so knowledge must be equally ubiquitous, meaning we don't create new knowledge as much as we interpret old data in new ways. What is 'Knowing'? since 'Knowledge' is a derivative of 'Knowing' What is capable of 'knowing'? A dog 'knows' it's way home. A cat knows it's dangerous to hang around dogs...does a stone know? is knowing an attribute of sentience? if so - did we come to this conclusion due to our limitation? i.e. it because it's all we 'know'? Who can 'know'? and so "Knowledge is and has been constant through the ages and across the universe" - who 'knew' it?  I have not thought about these questions since the day I left the late Mr Benaars philosophy class. But one thing I 'know' is that what we call knowing is largely the interpretation of patterns and drawing various conclusions from this process. That is how you, and the dog, find your way home, for example. The Universe around us is comprised of many such patterns (basically data) which we call information or knowledge once we have given them meaning. The big questions, for me, are: (i) Without a space/time frame of reference,the matrix on which most of these patterns are super imposed, would we know what we know? (ii) Quantum entanglement implies that particles are able to communicate (pass information) with each other outside of this matrix. Why can't we? question 1: no... we 'observe'. without a frame of reference called 'space/time' there would be no 'observation'. at least as far as we 'know'. question 2: We don't 'know' if this happens at a macro scale since Quantum field theory (the theory of really small things) and general relativity (the theory of really big things) seem not to be coherently unified. But i think we would have this answer since if we could do it (exchange this info outside the frame of reference we call space-time).... we would have observed it! We could have not understood it but we would have 'known'. we would have known we could... long before we could have known that this happens at the quantum level. if we were able to do this - it would mean everything else would be able to... dogs for example would make this 'communication' so would flies and earthworms and even bacteria and even stones and pebbles - it would be global info exchange of everything between the quanta and us... and perhaps even planets and the systems would do the same to each other.... gets mucky right? maybe it does happen but since it happens to everything it gets cancelled out from observation. You make good points here. But I have always wondered about your point no. 2: that the micro reality of the quantum world is different from the macro reality posited by relativity, therefore 'not coherently unified.' How can this be? Are we not composed of the same sub atomic particles that behave in that spooky manner? It is like saying the body of a house has nothing to do with the foundation because the latter is made of different materials? And then what was the point of the Schrodinger cat experiment (and his wave equation) if quantum reality has no macro world manifestation? Here is what I think, and I am very happy to be proved wrong: the reason science is not able to unify the two theories, other than their obsession with finding a firm nail on which to hang a shifting reality, is that we refuse to admit that there are no absolutes, or if there are we have not found them. For that we can largely blame two Germans: Einstein (everything is relative) Max Planck and the quantum physics crowd that came after(sub atomic reality is a series of probability waves, that only collapse into a discrete reality when we measure/observe them). A unified theory, if ever there is one, will have to rest on such shifting ground, tupende tusipende. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:What is knowledge? Does knowledge depend on observation?
I say knowledge begins with sensation being organized to meet certain ends. It's a function of systems.
Now sensation is a matter of resonance of energic frequencies. Hence knowledge is the organization of resonated frequencies for certain objectives as dictated by a system. In this case a stone can know. Because a stone is a system dictated by structure, both chemically and physically.
Knowledge is probably independent of space-time...
Tycho, a quick clarification. I did not say knowledge depends on observation but on pattern interpretation. Can you think of any knowledge/information that does not proceed from interpreting pattern? I can't. Most patterns are super imposed on the matrix of space/time, but definitely not all, unless we include 'inner space' in that description. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:What is knowledge? Does knowledge depend on observation?
I say knowledge begins with sensation being organized to meet certain ends. It's a function of systems.
Now sensation is a matter of resonance of energic frequencies. Hence knowledge is the organization of resonated frequencies for certain objectives as dictated by a system. In this case a stone can know. Because a stone is a system dictated by structure, both chemically and physically.
Knowledge is probably independent of space-time...
Tycho, a quick clarification. I did not say knowledge depends on observation but on pattern interpretation. Can you think of any knowledge/information that does not proceed from interpreting pattern? I can't. Most patterns are super imposed on the matrix of space/time, but definitely not all, unless we include 'inner space' in that description. My apologies. I'm so tired of thinking, but wait, I have to learn some psycho-physics today. Because I suspect that not only may there be no GUT, but that thinking and theorizing may be a psychological game we play to fill in our structural hunger... By the way, do cats think? Is thinking natural?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Even if string theory would supply a GUT, it would still not provide an absolute frame of reference. And if nothingness is the absolute I know of, then that would paradoxically, imply that there are no absolutes in the practical sense.
I concede, @Wakanyugi. With hindsight, this seems to be a motif of all human institutions from the past to the present. So why have I been searching for an absolute? I started the day with psychophysics, I end it with sociophysics.
So far, I think the universe is an abstraction that goes beyond physical observation and as such, the question of its size may be unintelligible.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/16/2012 Posts: 808
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Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...videos/1133336743364164/They tried to bury us, they didn't know we were seeds.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/[/quote] I could so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Wakanyugi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace Occasionally, we come across impossible questions that we cannot refute for the life us. It is ok to feel incompetent in the face of such questions. It is also ok to walk away from them. It is also ok to accept there are other valid perspectives out there.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenani(Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/[/quote] I could so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace why are you doing this to me? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Swenani wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenani(Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/[/quote] I could so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace why are you doing this to me? Doing what? Your are not R2D32, are you? I simply invoked my constitutional right, not to engage. Surely it is still permitted to walk away? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace Occasionally, we come across impossible questions that we cannot refute for the life us. It is ok to feel incompetent in the face of such questions. It is also ok to walk away from them. It is also ok to accept there are other valid perspectives out there. You are terribly right...  "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace Occasionally, we come across impossible questions that we cannot refute for the life us. It is ok to feel incompetent in the face of such questions. It is also ok to walk away from them. It is also ok to accept there are other valid perspectives out there. You are terribly right... I am utterly shocked and seriously perturbed by your embrace! Why have you said the thing you have said? Why did you threaten another but embrace me? By that, what are you up to?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I'm finding this topic to be so difficult. Not just to think about and form an opinion, but even studying on it to be more hard work than a layman can probably bear.
So, how can a 'lay person' live wisely, or is it intelligently under these circumstances? Or even, how can the studied relate with the unstudied?
Maybe all these theories and ideas aren't as important as we suppose them to be. Or the mystery of life and existence isn't meant to be answered in literal terms as science would appear to demand.
In my opinion the most reasonable way to go is to supply a myth that can meet the most basic needs of a people within a culture.
Thus the question of how big the universe is may be a mythical question requiring a mythical answer.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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what if there is another universe out there expanding towards us? What will happen when the two universe expansion collide/meet? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:what if there is another universe out there expanding towards us? What will happen when the two universe expansion collide/meet? We'd not notice the difference for one, and, spacetime itself is 'highly illusionary' that is, it's best not to attempt to define it.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:what if there is another universe out there expanding towards us? What will happen when the two universe expansion collide/meet? This question, may not be about science or rather may not be amenable to scientific discourse.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace Occasionally, we come across impossible questions that we cannot refute for the life us. It is ok to feel incompetent in the face of such questions. It is also ok to walk away from them. It is also ok to accept there are other valid perspectives out there. You are terribly right... I am utterly shocked and seriously perturbed by your embrace! Why have you said the thing you have said? Why did you threaten another but embrace me? By that, what are you up to? What is wrong with agreeing with you? Is it illegal? And I did not threaten R2D32. I simply declined to engage. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:I'm finding this topic to be so difficult. Not just to think about and form an opinion, but even studying on it to be more hard work than a layman can probably bear.
So, how can a 'lay person' live wisely, or is it intelligently under these circumstances? Or even, how can the studied relate with the unstudied?
Maybe all these theories and ideas aren't as important as we suppose them to be. Or the mystery of life and existence isn't meant to be answered in literal terms as science would appear to demand.
In my opinion the most reasonable way to go is to supply a myth that can meet the most basic needs of a people within a culture.
Thus the question of how big the universe is may be a mythical question requiring a mythical answer. I define myth as simply a consensus description of reality - one shared by many people. It is a lens that we all agree to look through in order to perceive and understand a portion of reality in a similar way. Science is a myth, as is religion. What we are discussing here is myth - any evidence we may cite notwithstanding. Can you propose a myth that most of us can agree on? I have done mine. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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