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Just How Big the Universe is
limanika
#101 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:42:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
..and if the universe is infinite, space is limitless as well. If space has no end,time has no end.


And therefore ....

...Eternity is real


Whatever conclusion an intelligent agent reaches can only be evaluated when it's tested in it's social context and ecosystem against its needs.

Therefore for me the questions that arise are who benefits from the reality of eternity? Who loses? What's changed by such a reality ... how does that affect action in the social context? How does it meet the intelligent requirements that spurred the thought?

So you're essentially alone in your thinking and no one can ever validate your thoughts ...




If eternity is a reality then the next logical step isn’t to question who benefits / who loses. Rather, how did it all start? Or in fact did it all start? How then was it started? Then…and only then you might get an answer to your question.

tycho
#102 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 11:08:35 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
..and if the universe is infinite, space is limitless as well. If space has no end,time has no end.


And therefore ....

...Eternity is real


Whatever conclusion an intelligent agent reaches can only be evaluated when it's tested in it's social context and ecosystem against its needs.

Therefore for me the questions that arise are who benefits from the reality of eternity? Who loses? What's changed by such a reality ... how does that affect action in the social context? How does it meet the intelligent requirements that spurred the thought?

So you're essentially alone in your thinking and no one can ever validate your thoughts ...




If eternity is a reality then the next logical step isn’t to question who benefits / who loses. Rather, how did it all start? Or in fact did it all start? How then was it started? Then…and only then you might get an answer to your question.



Not true. The declaration that something is real isn't a universal imperative. Even on this thread you'll find the contrary position that 'time doesn't exist and is probably 'unreal'.

Another example to illustrate my point is if I asked you whether ghosts are real. Many would say ghosts aren't real. But is the question of ghosts being real equivalent to that of ghosts being existent? Some thought will show that something real doesn't always exist and not all existent things are real!

The other point was highlighted by Wittgenstein; words, symbols, are not supported by concrete things ultimately. Words end up in more words such that speech has to be justified by action and experience. The word worth uttering is one which has political objectives.
tycho
#103 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 11:13:11 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.
limanika
#104 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 8:16:37 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
@Tycho now you've taken us to square one. Does time exist? YES. But it depends on your definition of time. From where I sit, time is simply derived from interelationship btwn speed and distance. Eg Speed of light/ distance = time. What's your definition?
limanika
#105 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 8:51:40 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.

Not true. The universe is governed by principals. And we rely on same to understand it. E.g. If an observer says Sun rotates round the earth, we know that ain't true.
harrydre
#106 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 7:18:56 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.
i.am.back!!!!
masukuma
#107 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 7:37:20 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.

I have always held that the silence we experience may mean 3 things
1) we are alone
2) the others are so ahead that they in the same way we have no interest and don't try to communicate with fish or plants have no interest in communicating with us
3) they may be so 'behind' that the best they can offer would be plant level intelligence.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#108 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:16:35 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
@Tycho now you've taken us to square one. Does time exist? YES. But it depends on your definition of time. From where I sit, time is simply derived from interelationship btwn speed and distance. Eg Speed of light/ distance = time. What's your definition?


I think we're always on 'square one'. But we can come back to this later.

I think 'time' is more real than existent. You agree with this sense when you say 'it's definition varies'. A good test would be to ask, 'where does time exist'? If we happen not to know where time exists and how we can direct someone to it, then we can safely assume it doesn't exist but is real - significant.

When it's real, then not only can definitions vary but they can also conflict. Reality is a political construct. What's the average lifespan of a housefly with respect to a human? A housefly? Whose time exists and where?....
tycho
#109 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:21:50 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.

Not true. The universe is governed by principals. And we rely on same to understand it. E.g. If an observer says Sun rotates round the earth, we know that ain't true.


Do you know for how long humans believed that the sun goes round the earth? Yet they built cities ...
tycho
#110 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:31:29 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.


Humans study ants and in the same breath, the sun. Do ants study humans? Do they have a CERN equivalent? Man has good reason to believe he's special.

Even 'God' we can contemplate...

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