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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Is belief, in anything, important or even necessary? how would life be without beliefs? For me beliefs are connected to language. I look at them as symbolic configurations and I'm wondering if life is possible at all without symbols. That brings us to the other point you've raised about 'truth'. And I'm thinking about truth being simply about a relationship unique to symbols and experience. Such that truth must be a condition of belief... Life is not possible without beliefs or symbols as you call them How will evil and good look like, how will success look like,how will growth look like without symbols? All these require symbols/belief of how the ideal outcome should look like If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I see where you get lost! when you travel in large numbers you carry your culture with you ... this does not help since you just change locality! Travelling in small numbers and being EMBEDDED is key! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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What's a cognitive bias? How about 'thoughtful reasoning'? Can 'cognitive bias' and 'thoughtful reason' coexist? When I think about these expressions, what meaning do I impose on them? Or do they have inherent meaning? I'm afraid we seem to take so much for granted.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable. How is it avoidable?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable. How is it avoidable? Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote: Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better.
Even when the reality you experience is a complete affront to what you believe? let's face it beliefs are given to us by a setting!! someone tells you over and over and over again - right? (faith comes by hearing... and hearing the word of God)? for example if you believe that Luos bath in the same basin they cook ugali , because you have been told that over and over when you are growing up - and you meet and interact with them and you fail to see any evidence to what you had been told before... will you still hold on to this position? What if - the authority that told you that Luos bath in the same basin they cook ugali - comes to you and says... hey... I was wrong!! I just lived with them and realized that... they don't! Will you still believe what you "1st heard"??? Anyway... on belief systems...I think.. this is my considered opinion... all these are ways that our brains collectively try to make sense of the chaotic world and universe we live in! That is why I encourage everyone to think what they deem necessary to get through the day! All belief systems are largely positive - filled with promise and love but they also explain bad things away.... when something really heartwrenching happens e.g. your child dies - you look at you belief system and question it and since the belief system has gotten you through some other difficult things, you look for an escape route in the same... statements like "thy will be done", "we loved you but God loved you more", "he is in a better place", "till we meet again" e.t.c. rationalize this loss and keep consistency with the overall positive belief system and sometime change this "fullstop" into a "comma" by promising that this devastating experience is not final but rather it's something temporary and creates a feedback loop into adherence of the belief system (you will see you deceased child if you do ABCD). We all need these things to move forward... and I agree - a society needs to believe in something (the existence of that something is not important to the existence of the belief system moulded around it). My observation however is this - all belief systems that encourage the individual to work of themselves e.g. the jewish culture, confucianism , some elements of christianism even traditional islam makes people grow. they can attribute their success to their belief system or the central idea/individual/deity of their belief system - which is fine! it keeps them humble. My fight is with belief systems that don't do this... superstition for example which is to me basically a list of actions totally unrelated to the target. e.g. going to a witchdoctor/pastor who extracts cash from you and promises that things will be OK if you just WAIT with a feedback loop that entails you parting with more of your meagre resources to reduce the wait period. I actually think the witchdoctor/pastor who extracts cash from you and tells you that you are now ready!!! match into that office and look for that tender or job or start your business coz you are now blessed is a 'good' person as he/she has planted something positive in you! This is my opinion based on what I have seen around! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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masukuma wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote: Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better.
Even when the reality you experience is a complete affront to what you believe? let's face it beliefs are given to us by a setting!! someone tells you over and over and over again - right? (faith comes by hearing... and hearing the word of God)? ................ ................That is why I encourage everyone to think what they deem necessary to get through the day!................ ................My fight is with belief systems that don't do this... superstition for example which is to me basically a list of actions totally unrelated to the target. e.g. going to a witchdoctor/pastor who extracts cash from you and promises that things will be OK if you just WAIT with a feedback loop that entails you parting with more of your meagre resources to reduce the wait period. ................ ........ Masukuma, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is not right of you to fight belief because a witchdoctor or a 'pastor' somewhere gives people false hope. For example, don't you wish your children (sorry to mention them) resist ill peer influence e.g. underage drinking and casual unprotected sex because the realities of such drinking and such sex are a complete affront to what you have allowed and encouraged them to believe. You may say that you encourage everyone to think what they deem necessary to get through the day but you are not a laissez faire parent, are you? Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better. Interconnectedness, travel is not necessarily a good thing as you want to portray and should be resisted as I portray when beliefs request so.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote: Masukuma, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is not right of you to fight belief because a witchdoctor or a 'pastor' somewhere gives people false hope. For example, don't you wish your children (sorry to mention them) resist ill peer influence e.g. underage drinking and casual unprotected sex because the realities of such drinking and such sex are a complete affront to what you have allowed and encouraged them to believe. You may say that you encourage everyone to think what they deem necessary to get through the day but you are not a laissez faire parent, are you?
Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better. Interconnectedness, travel is not necessarily a good thing as you want to portray and should be resisted as I portray when beliefs request so.
I neither said belief is useless (read everything I have said before).... it's very important to believe something... this is a brutal world!! you need to make sense of it and belief systems have created a way to smooth off the edges of the reality that this is a chaotic place. If your were related to this kid and saw this photo..  you need to believe that he/she went to a better place after being feasted on by the vulture - right? On how I want my kids to grow up? I want them to grow up knowing that they determine their future (not entirely true but its a good mindset to have). I also want them to understand they are a valued member of society and my job as a parent is to shephard them towards that. My agenda is not to make a bunch of nicely indoctrinated individuals.... (Which I see all the programs in place now doing). I want people who question the environment and authority. when you see the photo above or you read the atrocities of Hitler - you need to feel justified that there is a judge somewhere who will not make him get away with it... Right... that makes us move forward as a society. If someone asked why atheists think Hitler got away with it - some of their reasoning is... Hitler got away with it! That is why we need to make sure that doesn't happen again. Those people dying of hunger and malaria... don't have anything better waiting for them - that is why we need to stop people dying of hunger and malaria. Or the people who have been jailed wrongfully... Knowing that there is no one listening to their prayers and no one looking out for them makes you want to act to ensure that they don't suffer.... or really poor people... instead of them waiting for the day they will get a mansion or the " gatta shoes like all of God's children" - why not make them get these things here? Which is productive!! I agree with that... instead of waiting for some latter justice... why not prevent it in the 1st place? everyone is happy - right? i.e. ACTION NOW!! ACTION BY YOU!! which should really be the end product of a productive belief system. The Europeans explored the world bolstered by the christian doctrine that human beings are to have dominion over all the beasts of the earth and birds of the sea... MORE POWER TO THAT BELIEF SET. They left their comfort zones. on belief systems... don't do it for others - that is stupid! do it for your own sake! if you see evidence that makes you doubt... makes you yourself doubt your beliefs it does not mean that everything in your belief system is useless if you accept this one aspect is false? for example there is a group of people who still read some bible verses and say the planet is flat.... despite all evidence to the contrary they say it's flat... they know it's not flat but believe it is flat. Or those people who refuse to immunize their kids coz it's sinful (wazees should wekelea mtu mikono and paka them mafuta and pray). I remember an interview with one of the parents of these people who confessed... they know the kid will die! (based on evidence of others before) but still push the belief. I think that is self deception! What happens when these people go to israel and see ciana cia israel (the children of israel) immunising their kids? Would their belief system be shaken? just a bit? Kwa ufupi... hold on to a belief IF IT BENEFITS YOU and you KNOW IT TO BE TRUE! I stopped believing what I believed in when I realised I was being dishonest to myself coz I knew better! But I don't have it all figured out going forward. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Honestly @masukuma, your idea of action and inaction is confusing. I even suspect it's something to do with ignorance. Let me give an example; when we watch a movie, we don't insist that it should parallel 'reality', but we engage in it and even learn from it. In the same way, religious language shouldn't be conflated with our everyday language. So like the examples you're talking about; shoes, mansions, aren't valid to the extent you're using them for. You're talking as if the meaning you impose on them is the absolute meaning under all circumstances!
In your post I see you saying belief is equal to a psychological reaction like justification or rationalization. But is it? Is belief simply a way of making the world more tolerable? Belief can also be explained by other means that are simpler and more mundane. Belief is a characteristic of intelligence. Rationalization comes after intelligence. Intelligence may even come before language. Even before self consciousness.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable. How is it avoidable? Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better. Beliefs are like rivers, you can't cross one twice!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable. How is it avoidable? Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better. Beliefs are like rivers, you can't cross one twice! You are assuming beliefs are rivers - they are not - they are like rivers. And you certainly do not cross rivers - you cross over them - millions of times.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:tycho wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Tycho, Sire,
Increase in inter-connectedness has resulted to increase in conflict. The Aborigines of Australia lived in 'peace' until travelling Europeans arrived. Despite injecting themselves into Aborigine lands they maintained their prejudice and almost exterminated them. Same with the 'Indians' of America. The prognosis and reality is that turbulence, conflict, bigotry, narrow-mindedness will continue to be a part of this world. Because of inter-connectedness. I don't dispute that interconnectedness is related to increase in conflict. What I'm wondering is whether interconnectedness is avoidable. Yes, it is avoidable. How is it avoidable? Easy. Maintaining ones's beliefs despite travel, interconnectedness. Not everything one holds is to be given up to make someone else feel better. Beliefs are like rivers, you can't cross one twice! You are assuming beliefs are rivers - they are not - they are like rivers. And you certainly do not cross rivers - you cross over them - millions of times. Unnecessary contention or what. Even if you cross over them a trillion times they aren't the same rivers!
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