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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Is belief, in anything, important or even necessary? how would life be without beliefs? I think beliefs are important for everyone. If you think about it - everyone has a worldview! A way their brain rationalizes and sees this world and explains their positon in the grandscheme of things! Belief is important in that it gives us an expectation based on prior experiences. My take is regardless of what you believe and your acting and convincing others of your belief and making them act on the same is a recipe of success. so the important thing here is BELIEVING IN SOMETHING/SOMEONE and ACTING ON THAT BELIEF IN A DRIVEN WAY! that is why we have many religions and cultures and success stories in each of those religions and cultures. of course it would be silly (naive) as I once heard that born-agains have the best marriages... you cannot declare that since you have not visited every other marriage and deduced that their marriage stinks! so success in marriage, in life, in raising kids is all about enforcing a belief that has real life principles. A belief system that encourages not acting in the directions of the results and provided a 3 point formula that involves other things like chants and actions not related/directed to your expected/desired goals will not yield anything. so kwa ufupi.... some of us need the belief of God to make us act, some of us need the scare of death to drive us, some of us need competitiveness to make us driven and some require the fear of being laughed by the society at to make them driven.... the important thing is that action will yield results.... the being driven! Religion can yield the drive and can also yield superstition (basically doing some small actions in a different direction and then watching things to fall in place). So belief in God is important to some to act.... the factual existence of God is not necessary to the being present of belief in him.... not sure what the people of Japan believe in (less than 2% christians) but what they belief and act on... gives results. I tend to think having a belief system that also explains shortcomings and urges you to bounce back (rinse and repeat) is important since being driven is not a guarantee to success..... not first time. A belief system that makes you do more superstitious things is lethal to growing. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2015 Posts: 681 Location: Kenya
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Christian Agnostic. ✌🏿️
60% Learning, 30% synthesizing, 10% Debating
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Thitifini wrote:masukuma wrote:washiku wrote:@Masukuma, the stories aside, do you believe God exists? Would you or do you take your kids to church?
Declaration of Interest: I am a firm believer that God Exists. ....,,,,, So yes... that is the reason I take my kids to church since I am not the only one in question. I ask myself... what damage can it do? I think none and they grow up socially functional - why not?.......  Let them make a choice of their own. How is he letting them make their own choice when he has already made a choice for them by taking them to church? Why not take them to a mosque, synagogue or just let them be? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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masukuma wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Is belief, in anything, important or even necessary? how would life be without beliefs? I think beliefs are important for everyone. If you think about it - everyone has a worldview! A way their brain rationalizes and sees this world and explains their positon in the grandscheme of things! Belief is important in that it gives us an expectation based on prior experiences. My take is regardless of what you believe and your acting and convincing others of your belief and making them act on the same is a recipe of success. so the important thing here is BELIEVING IN SOMETHING/SOMEONE and ACTING ON THAT BELIEF IN A DRIVEN WAY! that is why we have many religions and cultures and success stories in each of those religions and cultures. of course it would be silly (naive) as I once heard that born-agains have the best marriages... you cannot declare that since you have not visited every other marriage and deduced that their marriage stinks! so success in marriage, in life, in raising kids is all about enforcing a belief that has real life principles. A belief system that encourages not acting in the directions of the results and provided a 3 point formula that involves other things like chants and actions not related/directed to your expected/desired goals will not yield anything. so kwa ufupi.... some of us need the belief of God to make us act, some of us need the scare of death to drive us, some of us need competitiveness to make us driven and some require the fear of being laughed by the society at to make them driven.... the important thing is that action will yield results.... the being driven! Religion can yield the drive and can also yield superstition (basically doing some small actions in a different direction and then watching things to fall in place). So belief in God is important to some to act.... the factual existence of God is not necessary to the being present of belief in him.... not sure what the people of Japan believe in (less than 2% christians) but what they belief and act on... gives results. I tend to think having a belief system that also explains shortcomings and urges you to bounce back (rinse and repeat) is important since being driven is not a guarantee to success..... not first time. A belief system that makes you do more superstitious things is lethal to growing. a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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masukuma wrote:washiku wrote:@Masukuma, the stories aside, do you believe God exists? Would you or do you take your kids to church?
Declaration of Interest: I am a firm believer that God Exists. I used to believe God exists and used to believe that believing that he exists was important for day-to-day life - not so much these days. While I am not sure he exists but what I am sure about is that IT IS NOT IMPORTANT TO BELIEVE HE EXISTS. I used to think that my day to day life being good or bad had a nexus with my believing - something that I now know is false. I think it's rather pompous and arrogant to think that the creator of the universe would be at my service in making sure I get a plot in Ruai.... and not at the service of the 32k african children who will die of malaria today. I have come to accept that the world has it's own rules and that I am responsible for my own fate(to a great extent) and when I am not... there is a reason called 'chance'. You know what? I would love to think he exists simply because the belief that he exists has been a very strong foundation of my life so far but I am aware that billions of people on the planet who don't believe as I believe/used to believe have their own foundations. I think if you socially live in a believing culture - it's best if you believed (or went with the flow) since life is too short to be always fighting.... my life is that way.... for a large part of my life I have lived in a socially believing world (always knew most was BS and wanted some kind of general theory that would marry my intellectual questions with what I felt/wanted to feel.... but that is not coming). So yes... that is the reason I take my kids to church since I am not the only one in question. I ask myself... what damage can it do? I think none and they grow up socially functional - why not? but for things that take out of the individual like planting seed, tithing , keshas, fasting - I have never engaged in them (even when I was believing since I thought they are relics of the past that only africans and left wing americans engage in)...on a funny note the first time I stayed 24 hours without sleep was during my wife's labour for our 1st born... have not done it again since then! My point... the decision of whether to believe in God or not is personal and cannot be attacked. I personally think whether he exists or not is not important since this place moves on in exactly the same way for those who believe in him or not i.e. those who take on responsibility on themselves to act(regardless of motivation) generally do better than those who don't! if belief of God and his divine will and destiny compels you to act and be responsible for your future outcome... you will likely succeed.... same thing for the person who does not but acts and becomes responsible for their future outcome. Considering human beings are inherently selfish,I fail to see what motivates a person who doesn't believe in a deity to have moral values and duties If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2015 Posts: 681 Location: Kenya
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Swenani wrote:Thitifini wrote:masukuma wrote:washiku wrote:@Masukuma, the stories aside, do you believe God exists? Would you or do you take your kids to church?
Declaration of Interest: I am a firm believer that God Exists. ....,,,,, So yes... that is the reason I take my kids to church since I am not the only one in question. I ask myself... what damage can it do? I think none and they grow up socially functional - why not?....... Let them make a choice of their own. How is he letting them make their own choice when he has already made a choice for them by taking them to church? Why not take them to a mosque, synagogue or just let them be? The norm of the society. Bring them according to the societal norm -either christian or Muslim etc , depending on one's cultural background. But after age of self-choice leave the choice to them.
60% Learning, 30% synthesizing, 10% Debating
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:masukuma wrote:washiku wrote:@Masukuma, the stories aside, do you believe God exists? Would you or do you take your kids to church?
Declaration of Interest: I am a firm believer that God Exists. I used to believe God exists and used to believe that believing that he exists was important for day-to-day life - not so much these days. While I am not sure he exists but what I am sure about is that IT IS NOT IMPORTANT TO BELIEVE HE EXISTS. I used to think that my day to day life being good or bad had a nexus with my believing - something that I now know is false. I think it's rather pompous and arrogant to think that the creator of the universe would be at my service in making sure I get a plot in Ruai.... and not at the service of the 32k african children who will die of malaria today. I have come to accept that the world has it's own rules and that I am responsible for my own fate(to a great extent) and when I am not... there is a reason called 'chance'. You know what? I would love to think he exists simply because the belief that he exists has been a very strong foundation of my life so far but I am aware that billions of people on the planet who don't believe as I believe/used to believe have their own foundations. I think if you socially live in a believing culture - it's best if you believed (or went with the flow) since life is too short to be always fighting.... my life is that way.... for a large part of my life I have lived in a socially believing world (always knew most was BS and wanted some kind of general theory that would marry my intellectual questions with what I felt/wanted to feel.... but that is not coming). So yes... that is the reason I take my kids to church since I am not the only one in question. I ask myself... what damage can it do? I think none and they grow up socially functional - why not? but for things that take out of the individual like planting seed, tithing , keshas, fasting - I have never engaged in them (even when I was believing since I thought they are relics of the past that only africans and left wing americans engage in)...on a funny note the first time I stayed 24 hours without sleep was during my wife's labour for our 1st born... have not done it again since then! My point... the decision of whether to believe in God or not is personal and cannot be attacked. I personally think whether he exists or not is not important since this place moves on in exactly the same way for those who believe in him or not i.e. those who take on responsibility on themselves to act(regardless of motivation) generally do better than those who don't! if belief of God and his divine will and destiny compels you to act and be responsible for your future outcome... you will likely succeed.... same thing for the person who does not but acts and becomes responsible for their future outcome. Considering human beings are inherently selfish,I fail to see what motivates a person who doesn't believe in a deity to have moral values and duties Don't worry - you will understand later! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:
a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth
says who? is Shinto based on knowledge and truth? is Buddhism based on knowledge and truth? is hinduism? is Islam? is Confucianism? is Sikhism? is Christianity? is Jainism? The biggest problem is you really cannot comprehend the people who practice these religions... born into them. as fervent as you are... having the same experiences you do.... lots and lots of people. Thinking you are lost and that you need redemption - just as you think of them! I guess my realisation of this is when I met a nepali lady who asked... by the way? You guys go to Church right? I said yes! .... she exclaimed.... Churches are normally empty with seats in them - what do you guys do in there? You would think everyone kinda knows what happens in a church... but nah!! this is a grown woman... travelling!! Sometimes when I find myself in a big airport I just sit in a corner and watch! it's quite interesting... you see a group of bangladeshis walking in a group that way... you see a bunch of fat casually dressed white people waking the other way! you see a bunch of pakistanis going some other way. A bunch of ultra othordox jews walking another. A bunch of Kalasingas, A bunch of West African Muslims walking that way. A bunch or really sharply dressed Africans walking the other way. A bunch of Indonesians.... Every minute a flight lands and dumps a bunch of people from one corner of the planet... and they go about their business. Everyone going about their business and I think... all these people.... believing different things... totally different and contradictory things - sharing the planet. I think... if I was to disappear from earth right now... no one here would care! no one would say... there is a void that has been left unfilled and blah blah. Yet everyone of these people is not a placeholder - each has a life... a wholesome and complex life just like yours. They have a history... they have aspirations, they have friends who are as important to them as yours are important to you. They have children who they wish to have the best lives that they can. They are exactly like you but born in a different culture on a different corner of the planet. Why would you take the words of a person who lived centuries ago and never ever left his home land never met these people or ancestors of these people to judge them? If you really think about it - you are living a much better life than many kings of old and for sure you know much more about the world than the philosophers of old.... why would you live and die by their words? Quote:Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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Swenani wrote:
a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth
Swenani wrote:
Considering human beings are inherently selfish,I fail to see what motivates a person who doesn't believe in a deity to have moral values and duties
 
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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masukuma wrote:Swenani wrote:
a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth
says who? is Shinto based on knowledge and truth? is Buddhism based on knowledge and truth? is hinduism? is Islam? is Confucianism? is Sikhism? is Christianity? is Jainism? The biggest problem is you really cannot comprehend the people who practice these religions... born into them. as fervent as you are... having the same experiences you do.... lots and lots of people. Thinking you are lost and that you need redemption - just as you think of them! I guess my realisation of this is when I met a nepali lady who asked... by the way? You guys go to Church right? I said yes! .... she exclaimed.... Churches are normally empty with seats in them - what do you guys do in there? You would think everyone kinda knows what happens in a church... but nah!! this is a grown woman... travelling!! Sometimes when I find myself in a big airport I just sit in a corner and watch! it's quite interesting... you see a group of bangladeshis walking in a group that way... you see a bunch of fat casually dressed white people waking the other way! you see a bunch of pakistanis going some other way. A bunch of ultra othordox jews walking another. A bunch of Kalasingas, A bunch of West African Muslims walking that way. A bunch or really sharply dressed Africans walking the other way. A bunch of Indonesians.... Every minute a flight lands and dumps a bunch of people from one corner of the planet... and they go about their business. Everyone going about their business and I think... all these people.... believing different things... totally different and contradictory things - sharing the planet. I think... if I was to disappear from earth right now... no one here would care! no one would say... there is a void that has been left unfilled and blah blah. Yet everyone of these people is not a placeholder - each has a life... a wholesome and complex life just like yours. They have a history... they have aspirations, they have friends who are as important to them as yours are important to you. They have children who they wish to have the best lives that they can. They are exactly like you but born in a different culture on a different corner of the planet. Why would you take the words of a person who lived centuries ago and never ever left his home land never met these people or ancestors of these people to judge them? If you really think about it - you are living a much better life than many kings of old and for sure you know much more about the world than the philosophers of old.... why would you live and die by their words? Quote:Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. Lies! Considering what is happening in Europe today, the travel of individuals from Middle East and North Africa has revived prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness. The world would be far more peaceful if people did their own thing where they are without interference from other people.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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masukuma wrote:Swenani wrote:
a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth
says who? is Shinto based on knowledge and truth? is Buddhism based on knowledge and truth? is hinduism? is Islam? is Confucianism? is Sikhism? is Christianity? is Jainism? The biggest problem is you really cannot comprehend the people who practice these religions... born into them. as fervent as you are... having the same experiences you do.... lots and lots of people. Thinking you are lost and that you need redemption - just as you think of them! I guess my realisation of this is when I met a nepali lady who asked... by the way? You guys go to Church right? I said yes! .... she exclaimed.... Churches are normally empty with seats in them - what do you guys do in there? You would think everyone kinda knows what happens in a church... but nah!! this is a grown woman... travelling!! Sometimes when I find myself in a big airport I just sit in a corner and watch! it's quite interesting... you see a group of bangladeshis walking in a group that way... you see a bunch of fat casually dressed white people waking the other way! you see a bunch of pakistanis going some other way. A bunch of ultra othordox jews walking another. A bunch of Kalasingas, A bunch of West African Muslims walking that way. A bunch or really sharply dressed Africans walking the other way. A bunch of Indonesians.... Every minute a flight lands and dumps a bunch of people from one corner of the planet... and they go about their business. Everyone going about their business and I think... all these people.... believing different things... totally different and contradictory things - sharing the planet. I think... if I was to disappear from earth right now... no one here would care! no one would say... there is a void that has been left unfilled and blah blah. Yet everyone of these people is not a placeholder - each has a life... a wholesome and complex life just like yours. They have a history... they have aspirations, they have friends who are as important to them as yours are important to you. They have children who they wish to have the best lives that they can. They are exactly like you but born in a different culture on a different corner of the planet. Why would you take the words of a person who lived centuries ago and never ever left his home land never met these people or ancestors of these people to judge them? If you really think about it - you are living a much better life than many kings of old and for sure you know much more about the world than the philosophers of old.... why would you live and die by their words? Quote:Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. @Makales, Says Swenani though I didn’t say that Christianity, Islam, Shinto, Hinduism etc ar e GOOD religions but whichever the case I believe that all the religions you have mentioned above are based on knowledge and truth as per the believers perception or beliefs In Christianity, I think Christians believe that the truth is in the bible and Christians gain knowledge by reading and understanding the bible which leads to truth being revealed to them- maybe that’s why it’s called the “gospel of truth” and the “holy book” meaning that it has truth in it and it is regarded with respect. I also think this applies to Islam with regards to Quaran. I think all these other religions must have a claim to the truth either exclusively or not regardless of whether you as an individual or outsider to that religion consider that to be or to be not factual truth In summary, religion or beliefs should be based on truth and knowledge, you should have the knowledge to weigh on which beliefs will make you content and achieve what is important to you(Truths) If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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Belief Systems are control systems. Nothing more.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Mtu Biz wrote:Belief Systems are control systems.
Nothing more.
What do you believe?
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Mtu Biz wrote:Belief Systems are control systems.
Nothing more.
Of course belief system control our morals, values, behavior and thought processes If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:Is belief, in anything, important or even necessary? I guess belief that leads to ACTION is very important!! Belief that leads to INACTION or requires some kind of magic act... sprinkle some X here, chant a few words there, give money to an unrelated person e.t.c then stay passive until something happens is irresponsible! What you're saying is interesting. You seem to be quoting the bible from James 2:14-26 and you go further to say what you consider to be action and what's not action. In this case passivity is inaction. What I'm wondering is, isn't this simply a matter of semantics, and that actually you've not said anything?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Is belief, in anything, important or even necessary? how would life be without beliefs? For me beliefs are connected to language. I look at them as symbolic configurations and I'm wondering if life is possible at all without symbols. That brings us to the other point you've raised about 'truth'. And I'm thinking about truth being simply about a relationship unique to symbols and experience. Such that truth must be a condition of belief...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:masukuma wrote:Swenani wrote:
a good belief system should be based on knowledge and truth
says who? is Shinto based on knowledge and truth? is Buddhism based on knowledge and truth? is hinduism? is Islam? is Confucianism? is Sikhism? is Christianity? is Jainism? The biggest problem is you really cannot comprehend the people who practice these religions... born into them. as fervent as you are... having the same experiences you do.... lots and lots of people. Thinking you are lost and that you need redemption - just as you think of them! I guess my realisation of this is when I met a nepali lady who asked... by the way? You guys go to Church right? I said yes! .... she exclaimed.... Churches are normally empty with seats in them - what do you guys do in there? You would think everyone kinda knows what happens in a church... but nah!! this is a grown woman... travelling!! Sometimes when I find myself in a big airport I just sit in a corner and watch! it's quite interesting... you see a group of bangladeshis walking in a group that way... you see a bunch of fat casually dressed white people waking the other way! you see a bunch of pakistanis going some other way. A bunch of ultra othordox jews walking another. A bunch of Kalasingas, A bunch of West African Muslims walking that way. A bunch or really sharply dressed Africans walking the other way. A bunch of Indonesians.... Every minute a flight lands and dumps a bunch of people from one corner of the planet... and they go about their business. Everyone going about their business and I think... all these people.... believing different things... totally different and contradictory things - sharing the planet. I think... if I was to disappear from earth right now... no one here would care! no one would say... there is a void that has been left unfilled and blah blah. Yet everyone of these people is not a placeholder - each has a life... a wholesome and complex life just like yours. They have a history... they have aspirations, they have friends who are as important to them as yours are important to you. They have children who they wish to have the best lives that they can. They are exactly like you but born in a different culture on a different corner of the planet. Why would you take the words of a person who lived centuries ago and never ever left his home land never met these people or ancestors of these people to judge them? If you really think about it - you are living a much better life than many kings of old and for sure you know much more about the world than the philosophers of old.... why would you live and die by their words? Quote:Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. Lies! Considering what is happening in Europe today, the travel of individuals from Middle East and North Africa has revived prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness. The world would be far more peaceful if people did their own thing where they are without interference from other people. Hahaha! Thinking about all these things is proving a challenge to me. Everything seems to be so jumbled! For example can people live without interference from other people? How can I understand such an expression?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mtu Biz wrote:Belief Systems are control systems.
Nothing more.
They must be something more. At least, let me ask; are all control systems, belief systems?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:
Lies! Considering what is happening in Europe today, the travel of individuals from Middle East and North Africa has revived prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness.
You have read it all wrong! It's not the traveling of the immigrant that changes the insular European or American... it's the travelling of the insular European/American that treats his prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness! it's not inbound traffic that helps you but rather you going elsewhere that helps you! a good example is when a Kikuyu from deep central province is exposed for an elongated period of time to the Luo in Nyanza... they feed him. He still has issues for a while, he experiences culture shock but just after culture shock comes bliss - coz he now get's the Luo and when he goes back home and someone says something like.... "Hawa Wajaluo...." He may smile but he thinks... Well.... My friend Onyi did not behave in the way this guy who has never been to Nyanza says they do!". Some of the elements of culture that seem weird to external eyes are only explained when you live within the culture for an elongated period of time. Anti_Burglar wrote:
The world would be far more peaceful if people did their own thing where they are without interference from other people.
Nope... it wouldn't be more peaceful!! it would seem peaceful until one of the isolated groups of people thinks they are the sh*t and are God sent and they are to 'assist' the rest then we are back to where we started... in order to kill stupidity and intolerance one must be inoculated of it by exposure to the very elements that will make you go ballistic! Unless you sit and eat with a group of people - in their elements, you cannot know them! plus migration is as old as humanity... so stop fighting the future and ride the wave. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Masukuma, sire,
Your ideas are for the ideal world that unfortunately is not the practical one. It matters not if I visit you there or you visit me here. The end is that we are together! The fact that 2 distinct people initially separated by geography can come together and experience conflict is a debunking of your explanation that travel is a sure cure for prejudice. So long as the group that wants to 'assist' others is isolated by geography then the rest will have peace. Your remedy is not sure. It is guesswork.
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