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World's oldest stone tools found near Lake Turkana
masukuma
#91 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:11:26 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:

Good try @Alba. The question is; it's said evolution is gradual process, so where is the previous state before ours. Ama when you evolve into the next stage, all the previous die?

not really... in the same way your relatives did not die because you showed up! it's really a matter of both time and tenecity. for example there was an event some 70k years the so-called Toba catastrophe! that cause climate change in Africa that caused lots of damage and almost finished our ancestors... A similar (but much smaller episode happened in 1815 and caused the year without the summer (1816)) cause havoc in recent history! If you think about it... these divisions were not deliberate but happened over a great period of time! if they approximate a species showed up between 100-200k years ago that 100k years that is being loosely approximated is a time period you cannot comprehend. it's 10 times all of human written history. it's 50 times time period from Christ's birth to now... a whooping 50 times! it's 2000 times the independence of Kenya! so what happens when they approximate (via carbon and other radioactive dating methods and of course DNA) a period of 3.2 million years for Lucy (the ethiopian)? that is the indepence of Kenya 64,000 times back to back! if Guka is a modest 50 years old....and if he could only sire at age 50... that means that 64,000 gukas lived and died before now... think of all those permutations. what happened to his relatives? since each guka was not born at the same time? if the recent mzungu white skin is approximated to be less than 8k years old... and their blue eyes some 10k years ago and combination of these blue eyes and white skins have populated and occupied the north of this planet kabisa!! Back to my point... if 64,000 back to back produced as one of the leaves of this genealogical tree...the one Guka we have... what about this brothers? the brothers and sisters of his father and mother?... project backwards (with genetic lines crossing over and over)...a whooping 64k times - do you expect to find a grumpy Guka? you end up with a different creature!!
The problem is that modern humans achieved so much over a relatively short period of time and cannot conceive a period before this relatively short period of time. But the scientific method is great... it accepts evidence from everyone. if you can prove creation is right and evolution is wrong... get evidence, write a paper, get it peer reviewed and then go pick your nobel prize!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Alba
#92 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 10:23:59 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
AlphDoti wrote:

Good try @Alba. The question is; it's said evolution is gradual process, so where is the previous state before ours. Ama when you evolve into the next stage, all the previous die?


The previous species Homo Hedelbergensis also known as Homo Rhodiensis did not dissappear. It evolved into Homo Sapiens which is us. It evolved through natural selection.

Human beings evolved just as languages evolve. The original Bantu Language (proto-Bantu) did not disappear. It simply evolved into hundreds of other Bantu Languages.
Alba
#93 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 10:25:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
kaka2za wrote:
Alba wrote:
Lake Turkana region never ceases to surprise. The number of ancient artifacts, fossils that have been found in that region is mind boggling. It must have been a very fertile and well watered area for people to fighting each other to the death over resources as recently as 10,000 years ago


The assumption they were fighting over resources is debatable. Humans kill for plethora of reasons and not necessarily resources.


Thats true. Its a calculated guess. Most conflicts among our ancestors were due to resources.

This one may have happened as that area started to become dryer resulting in resources becoming scarce.
kaka2za
#94 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 12:47:16 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 4,058
Location: Gwitu
Alba wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
Alba wrote:
Lake Turkana region never ceases to surprise. The number of ancient artifacts, fossils that have been found in that region is mind boggling. It must have been a very fertile and well watered area for people to fighting each other to the death over resources as recently as 10,000 years ago


The assumption they were fighting over resources is debatable. Humans kill for plethora of reasons and not necessarily resources.


Thats true. Its a calculated guess. Most conflicts among our ancestors were due to resources.

This one may have happened as that area started to become dryer resulting in resources becoming scarce.


I doubt the area was dry 200 years ago leave alone 10,000 years. Kenya's population in 1900 was estimated to be around 1.7M. The population in Turkana must have been a few thousands and resources were abundant.
According to the bible,Cain , first person born in this world murdered his brother yet they were the only family in the world. Was it about resources? No! It was out of envy, jealousy, hurt ego....
Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
Alba
#95 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 7:12:59 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
kaka2za wrote:

I doubt the area was dry 200 years ago leave alone 10,000 years. Kenya's population in 1900 was estimated to be around 1.7M. The population in Turkana must have been a few thousands and resources were abundant.
According to the bible,Cain , first person born in this world murdered his brother yet they were the only family in the world. Was it about resources? No! It was out of envy, jealousy, hurt ego....


This is a scientific discussion my friend. You've disqualified yourself by bringing religious views into the discussion. You cannot be taken seriously if people are discussing a scientific topic and you bring up the story of Abel and Cain.

Secondly Lake Turkana is located in a semi-desert/desert area (Chalbi). Scientists can easily determine when deserts are formed.

I would suggest you read scientific journals rather than the story of Abel and Cain.

Here is a brief history of Lake Turkana region

According to this article, there was a climatic change that happened approx 6500 years ago that transformed the region from lush fertile region to desert

This article confirms the same

The general consensus is that the area became desert about 6500 years ago. So your notion that it was not dry 200 years ago is bogus.

Also common sense suggest that if the region was not dry in 1900 as you claim, then it would have been settled more densely. If resources were abundant in 1900 then why has that region always been very sparsely populated?
Alba
#96 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 7:29:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
@Kka2a

On conflict, even the Daily Nation says that land and resources has always been the main cause of conflict in Kenya. That is According to this article

If this is the case in Kenya today then I see no reason why the same was not true thousands of years ago.

I find it laughable that groups would go to war because of ego or envy or hurt as you claim. Do you actually know of any war that has ever happened due to ego?

Most wars in recent histiry has happened due to land or other resource

- Hitler started world war 2 when he invaded poland
- The first gulf war started when Saddam grabbed Kuwait
- George Bush invaded Iraq likely due to oil
- Putin is fighting Ukraine in order to grab Crimea and western Ukraine.
- The American civil war was fought over land and slaves (which is a resource)
- Greed for oil (which is a resource) is driving ISIS
- In Kenya, the first shifta war against Somalia was fought because Somalis were claiming North Eastern province.
- The war between Tanzania and Uganda started when Iddi Amin tried to gran the Kagera region.


I could go on and on.
The only exception appears to be when fighting terrorist insurgents.

As for you, the only example you could come up with is the story of Abel and Cain Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
kaka2za
#97 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 7:47:02 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 4,058
Location: Gwitu
Alba wrote:
@Kka2a

On conflict, even the Daily Nation says that land and resources has always been the main cause of conflict in Kenya. That is According to this article

If this is the case in Kenya today then I see no reason why the same was not true thousands of years ago.

I find it laughable that groups would go to war because of ego or envy or hurt as you claim. Do you actually know of any war that has ever happened due to ego?

Most wars in recent histiry has happened due to land or other resource

- Hitler started world war 2 when he invaded poland
- The first gulf war started when Saddam grabbed Kuwait
- George Bush invaded Iraq likely due to oil
- Putin is fighting Ukraine in order to grab Crimea and western Ukraine.
- The American civil war was fought over land and slaves (which is a resource)
- Greed for oil (which is a resource) is driving ISIS
- In Kenya, the first shifta war against Somalia was fought because Somalis were claiming North Eastern province.
- The war between Tanzania and Uganda started when Iddi Amin tried to gran the Kagera region.


I could go on and on.
The only exception appears to be when fighting terrorist insurgents.

As for you, the only example you could come up with is the story of Abel and Cain Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly


@Alba What you have stated is correct and the late Prof Wangari used to emphasize that most conflicts were over resources.
My point was that resources might not have been the issue 10000 years ago. All the examples you have given are fairly recent.
Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
masukuma
#98 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:03:36 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I am highly suspicious that it was not a war over land since land only became useful to people after the agrarian revolution. If you doubt me , look at land ownership notions of the Australian aborigines, the canadian Innuit (Eskimo) , the koisan and the mountain Bushman. The issue the Boers faced after meeting the Bushman was in animals... the very concept of a person owning a live animal... so the mountain Bush man of the Orange freestate could not comprehend that notion of ownership...hunters gatherers believed you owned what you killed and could carry and since you cannot kill and carry 100 cows...why would you call them "yours"?... plus they are still alive!! Of course the Boer fire power cleared them and what is left of them is in the genes and language of the basotho people. Back to my point, prior to going agrarian or pastoral the concept of ownership was "what you could carry". The rest is recent history.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#99 Posted : Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:09:02 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
kaka2za wrote:

I doubt the area was dry 200 years ago leave alone 10,000 years. Kenya's population in 1900 was estimated to be around 1.7M. The population in Turkana must have been a few thousands and resources were abundant.
According to the bible,Cain , first person born in this world murdered his brother yet they were the only family in the world. Was it about resources? No! It was out of envy, jealousy, hurt ego....

I once read about the topic of "how to trap a monkey". the trap is relatively simple! the same question was posed by Shaka Zulu... the discourse goes something like this
Quote:

Shaka: Tell me Febonah. How do you trap a monkey?

Febonah: Well, a gourd is used, with a narrow neck. The bait is dropped into the gourd, a piece of fruit or something shiny. The monkey puts his hand, down into the neck of the gourd and then he grabs the bait and he's trapped, because he can't get his fist out.

Shaka: Once he realizes he's trapped, why doesn't the monkey let go of the bait?

Febonah: Because his greed makes him blind.


I tend to disagree a bit at the end with the distillation of the monkey's behavior to be one driven by greed but rather one driven by familiarity. The monkey is trapped not by anything physical but by an idea, unable to see that a principle that served him well – “when you see food, hold on tight!” – has become lethal at this point in time. There is a saying that "the difficulty, lies not in (accepting) the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones". To save his life all the monkey has to do is release the food/shiny thing it has tightly held - but it can't!! The effect is called the 'Einstellung effect', When doctors make errors in their practice, it has been demonstrated that's it’s likely to be because they jump to conclusions based on past patients, not because they lack medical knowledge ... I tend to think that sometime belief is the notion... the idea... to search through the scriptures to get answers to life and questions - that has served us well in our life so far becomes the trap when we are faced with scientific questions!! I remember a friend who first experienced an earth quake in 2007-2008 (remember the Ol Doinyo Lengai episodes?), searching through scripture for answers on the cause and meanings of earth quakes. I am sure the Kavonokya sect's hand has been caught in the gourd! If aliens suddenly land here... what will your reaction be??

On a different note: Who said the current inhabitants of the Turkana basin were there 200 years ago? 1000 years ago? 5000 years ago? 10000 years ago? people did not start migrating recently - people have been going round since they stepped on the planet! We know the current inhabitants (the sub group of the eastern nilotes known as the Turkana) migrated southwards from South Sudan... and that is recently!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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