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ARM Cement 9M15 EPS Plunge
VituVingiSana
#21 Posted : Sunday, November 08, 2015 8:08:33 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
moneydust wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
This is the biggest chance in years to own arm cement shares if it can get to 30.00


No point in jumping into a sinking ship.This is how KQ started,small problems that appear insignificant that lead to bigger problems.
For long, I have thought this company is overvalued.Little did I know its achilles heels are foreign denominated loans,now coupled with increasing stiff competition in the sector,the road ahead is tough.

2 billion shillings in unrealized losses is no joke.

I find ARM over-priced but I think they will be OK as a business as long as they can sell the cement/clinker they produce. If demand crashes in EAC, then they are in HUGE trouble.

It seems they have excess capacity but as the EAC (KE & TZ) start building infrastructure over the next few years the demand for concrete/cement will grow & utilizing the capacity.

One huge plus for ARM vs KQ is the management-ownership. Naikuni/Mbugua were after salaries (& probably kickbacks) but Pradeep Paunrana (& family) has a lot more to lose if ARM goes down.


Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Aguytrying
#22 Posted : Monday, November 09, 2015 10:20:15 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
VituVingiSana wrote:
moneydust wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
This is the biggest chance in years to own arm cement shares if it can get to 30.00


No point in jumping into a sinking ship.This is how KQ started,small problems that appear insignificant that lead to bigger problems.
For long, I have thought this company is overvalued.Little did I know its achilles heels are foreign denominated loans,now coupled with increasing stiff competition in the sector,the road ahead is tough.

2 billion shillings in unrealized losses is no joke.

I find ARM over-priced but I think they will be OK as a business as long as they can sell the cement/clinker they produce. If demand crashes in EAC, then they are in HUGE trouble.

It seems they have excess capacity but as the EAC (KE & TZ) start building infrastructure over the next few years the demand for concrete/cement will grow & utilizing the capacity.

One huge plus for ARM vs KQ is the management-ownership. Naikuni/Mbugua were after salaries (& probably kickbacks) but Pradeep Paunrana (& family) has a lot more to lose if ARM goes down.




I listened to the Md and finance guy in a video interview with Aly Khan. I know how that already sounds. Anyway. They are not worried about the unrealized forex losses, were the shilling to strengthen they will be mitigated. If the convertible bond is redeemed as shares it will be mitigated. If the first 2 don't happen, they will use their dollar earnings to pay off the loan. It's due IFRS rules that they have to pass it through profit and loss. Also the recently completed tanga plants' borrowing is now being reflected in finance costs after being commissioned.

On management, that is the real reason I like this company. Please do not compare this with KQ. In management they are worlds apart. The company's revenues or expenses are intact. On capacity, Pradeep reckons that Kenya is far away from the global average, that could be a problem if he is wrong.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
omega
#23 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:28:49 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/9/2009
Posts: 85
ARM Sh10.7bn private bond

Hopefully the bond will bring under control the ballooning finance cost.
VituVingiSana
#24 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2015 7:17:51 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
omega wrote:
ARM Sh10.7bn private bond

Hopefully the bond will bring under control the ballooning finance cost.


They are trying to lengthen the repayment periods to reduce stress on the cashflows. The finance costs may not decrease.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Aguytrying
#25 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Why does my heart pain when I see ARM rallying every day (yet i dont own shares) after I was just about to pull the trigger below 35.00? Surely it will be back right? right?
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
Othelo
#26 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:54:38 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 1/20/2014
Posts: 3,528
Aguytrying wrote:
Why does my heart pain when I see ARM rallying every day (yet i dont own shares) after I was just about to pull the trigger below 35.00? Surely it will be back right? right?

But ARM was around 33 for a number of days over the last 3 trading weeks!!!
Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
Ericsson
#27 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:46:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,702
Location: NAIROBI
@Aguytrying
Announcement that they are going for a long term debt to use the proceeds to retire short term debt so as to protect cash flows and profitability.
They have the faith that business will be growing to comfortably repay the debt without hurting profitability and cash flows
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Aguytrying
#28 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:35:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Othelo wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Why does my heart pain when I see ARM rallying every day (yet i dont own shares) after I was just about to pull the trigger below 35.00? Surely it will be back right? right?

But ARM was around 33 for a number of days over the last 3 trading weeks!!!


didn't have money and didn't buy
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
mulla
#29 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:32:56 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/15/2013
Posts: 301
Aguytrying wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Why does my heart pain when I see ARM rallying every day (yet i dont own shares) after I was just about to pull the trigger below 35.00? Surely it will be back right? right?

But ARM was around 33 for a number of days over the last 3 trading weeks!!!


didn't have money and didn't buy


supply was very thin anyways some days nil.....the few times I checked on it
h2s
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 9:18:33 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/20/2012
Posts: 141
How will this affect the company:

http://www.businessdaily...82/-/1usnfc/-/index.html
dunkang
#31 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2016 7:04:06 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Aguytrying
#32 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2016 11:43:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Whoa. The dilution happening to ARM is not small.

Current market cap at 35.00 is 17.5bn Kes

Incoming investment of preference shares is 12.5 bn Kes

After crunching some hypothetical numbers the eps will be diluted to become 55% of what it currently is. The last good/normal year it was 3.01 eps. 55% of 3.01 is 1.66 eps.

Current PE is 11.75, assuming this is maintained 11.75*1.66= 19.75.

So 1 ARM share should be at 19.75 when you factor in the dilution.

( some may argue. But they are preference shares? True, but the earn dividends and they WILL be converted, so other than not trading, they are dilutive to the equity, it would be wrong not to include them in the valuation)

If you use a pe of 10. 16.60 Kes per share.

Let's await the final numbers on the shares that will be issued, but it won't be far from this, depending on arm negotiating skills, I've pegged investors to buy price at 30.00 per share.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
obiero
#33 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 8:07:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,549
Location: nairobi
murchr wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
murchr wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
obiero wrote:
enyands wrote:
Spikes wrote:
I think as for speculative guyz 20 bob is a massive buyp.....we are just waiting for the whistle!



@spike Following

Is it only me, or does @spike remind u guys of @qw


Yeah, but espcially @realtreaty. It could even be him


@realtreaty cannot be QW..by the way the guy still has love for wazua, I saw him advising some people on FB to join wazua


Why can't he come back, we miss his humour. He used to be one of my friends here



Laughing out loudly Madam admin alimfukuza na mwiko moto...I guess he's still a member we'll know with time

CDC UK to pump in KES 14.1B into ARM

HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
Aguytrying
#34 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:13:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Aguytrying wrote:
Whoa. The dilution happening to ARM is not small.

Current market cap at 35.00 is 17.5bn Kes

Incoming investment of preference shares is 12.5 bn Kes

After crunching some hypothetical numbers the eps will be diluted to become 55% of what it currently is. The last good/normal year it was 3.01 eps. 55% of 3.01 is 1.66 eps.

Current PE is 11.75, assuming this is maintained 11.75*1.66= 19.75.

So 1 ARM share should be at 19.75 when you factor in the dilution.

( some may argue. But they are preference shares? True, but the earn dividends and they WILL be converted, so other than not trading, they are dilutive to the equity, it would be wrong not to include them in the valuation)

If you use a pe of 10. 16.60 Kes per share.

Let's await the final numbers on the shares that will be issued, but it won't be far from this, depending on arm negotiating skills, I've pegged investors to buy price at 30.00 per share.


Those with interest int ARM what is the impact on dilution by the new investment esp on EPS and PE??
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
Ericsson
#35 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:24:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,702
Location: NAIROBI
It is not preference shares being created but ordinary to accomodate CDC.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
VituVingiSana
#36 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:12:05 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
Aguytrying wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Whoa. The dilution happening to ARM is not small.

Current market cap at 35.00 is 17.5bn Kes

Incoming investment of preference shares is 12.5 bn Kes

After crunching some hypothetical numbers the eps will be diluted to become 55% of what it currently is. The last good/normal year it was 3.01 eps. 55% of 3.01 is 1.66 eps.

Current PE is 11.75, assuming this is maintained 11.75*1.66= 19.75.

So 1 ARM share should be at 19.75 when you factor in the dilution.

( some may argue. But they are preference shares? True, but the earn dividends and they WILL be converted, so other than not trading, they are dilutive to the equity, it would be wrong not to include them in the valuation)

If you use a pe of 10. 16.60 Kes per share.

Let's await the final numbers on the shares that will be issued, but it won't be far from this, depending on arm negotiating skills, I've pegged investors to buy price at 30.00 per share.


Those with interest int ARM what is the impact on dilution by the new investment esp on EPS and PE??

@Aguy - I don't have shares in ARM but there might not be a dilution in the EPS since CDC is putting in new cash at a "not-so-cheap" price. Think Helios' investment in Equity which helped Equity super-charge growth. The current PER is meaningless if the EPS is negative.

I am not 100% sure but thanks to the CDC cash, the banks have gone easy on ARM which was struggling for Working Capital. Even the CP folks are now voluntarily renewing their CPs.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Aguytrying
#37 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 4:16:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
VituVingiSana wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Whoa. The dilution happening to ARM is not small.

Current market cap at 35.00 is 17.5bn Kes

Incoming investment of preference shares is 12.5 bn Kes

After crunching some hypothetical numbers the eps will be diluted to become 55% of what it currently is. The last good/normal year it was 3.01 eps. 55% of 3.01 is 1.66 eps.

Current PE is 11.75, assuming this is maintained 11.75*1.66= 19.75.

So 1 ARM share should be at 19.75 when you factor in the dilution.

( some may argue. But they are preference shares? True, but the earn dividends and they WILL be converted, so other than not trading, they are dilutive to the equity, it would be wrong not to include them in the valuation)

If you use a pe of 10. 16.60 Kes per share.

Let's await the final numbers on the shares that will be issued, but it won't be far from this, depending on arm negotiating skills, I've pegged investors to buy price at 30.00 per share.


Those with interest int ARM what is the impact on dilution by the new investment esp on EPS and PE??

@Aguy - I don't have shares in ARM but there might not be a dilution in the EPS since CDC is putting in new cash at a "not-so-cheap" price. Think Helios' investment in Equity which helped Equity super-charge growth. The current PER is meaningless if the EPS is negative.

I am not 100% sure but thanks to the CDC cash, the banks have gone easy on ARM which was struggling for Working Capital. Even the CP folks are now voluntarily renewing their CPs.


I hear you. However as long as new shares are created the EPS must get diluted. Unless the dilution is small, but i understand its almost equal to the market cap of ARM so should be significant. I'll try crunch the numbers using the last good 'Normal' year.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
Fyatu
#38 Posted : Wednesday, August 17, 2016 12:03:51 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,820
Location: Nakuru
ARM shareholders are facing a 40% dilution. The company is also creating another 21 million shares under Employee Share Ownership Programme (ESOP). All in all, this stock is a gem
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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