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Centum pays out KSH 1 billion to employees
ngapat
#101 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 10:13:11 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 896
Mworia says and not wrote:
The company says the scheme is meant to balance the interest of shareholders and employees, who are driven to consistently match or beat the performance benchmark going forward for their cash entitlement to vest.

“It focuses the staff on performance. Everyone at Centum works like they are running their own business,” said Mr Mworia.


Why not change the ''like they are running their own businesses'' to actually running their own businesses by use of shares (ESOP) to reward empoyees.

With ESOP, the employees will work hard because they are actually running their own business.
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
Pesa Nane
#102 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 10:33:04 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
ngapat wrote:
Mworia says and not wrote:
The company says the scheme is meant to balance the interest of shareholders and employees, who are driven to consistently match or beat the performance benchmark going forward for their cash entitlement to vest.

“It focuses the staff on performance. Everyone at Centum works like they are running their own business,” said Mr Mworia.


Why not change the ''like they are running their own businesses'' to actually running their own businesses by use of shares (ESOP) to reward empoyees.

With ESOP, the employees will work hard because they are actually running their own business.

@ngapat you misunderstood the guy. He meant they get to eat first "like they are running their own businesses" Sad Sad
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
urstill1
#103 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 4:44:54 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 9/6/2013
Posts: 1,446
Location: In a house
Quote:
“Should there be a drop in shareholder wealth, payment will not be made and will be deferred until the year when shareholder wealth is restored,” Centum says in its latest annual report. Those who leave the company before being paid their bonus automatically forfeit the sums.


Mucene
#104 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 5:01:39 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/4/2012
Posts: 155
Location: Kenya
alotoftalk wrote:
heri wrote:
alotoftalk wrote:
In principal I am 100% in agreement with this mode of compensation. It keeps the employees on their toes.

What I don't agree with is the payment in cash. This is not an investment bank, hedge/VC/PE fund where the employees are partners rather the capital they are employing belongs to the shareholders not the employees.Should anything go wrong the employees and management will have their cash and the shareholder all the downside.

Why should they be paid in cash while shareholders are asked to wait for capital gains or sell a portion in case they need cash dividend equivalent?

They should be paid in shares vesting over 3-5 years. This way their interests will be truly aligned with those of the shareholders.

On the bright side the CEO is a key shareholder;truly aligned with the rest of the shareholders.


Yeah bright side but only to some extent. With the kind of bonuses he is getting +salary per month+ time value of money benefit, do you think even if the share price does not do so well, he will lose as much?

In any case, 3-5 years down the road if he smells disaster, he will be the first one to offload with the benefit of insider info

The shareholder here can easily get screwed



He's KES 200MM skin in the game. A decline of 10% hits him with KES 20MM. That will screw him unless he's a billionaire plus.

Though if I go as per @ngapat's theory the cash bonuses will soon make him one of the top owners while other shareholders wait for their capital gains or losses.


It won’t screw him as at the end of the year he still gets 34M in bonuses meaning he is 14M richer.
If you don't want to go to plan B have a good plan A.
MaichBlack
#105 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 5:23:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,570
Mucene wrote:
alotoftalk wrote:
heri wrote:
alotoftalk wrote:
In principal I am 100% in agreement with this mode of compensation. It keeps the employees on their toes.

What I don't agree with is the payment in cash. This is not an investment bank, hedge/VC/PE fund where the employees are partners rather the capital they are employing belongs to the shareholders not the employees.Should anything go wrong the employees and management will have their cash and the shareholder all the downside.

Why should they be paid in cash while shareholders are asked to wait for capital gains or sell a portion in case they need cash dividend equivalent?

They should be paid in shares vesting over 3-5 years. This way their interests will be truly aligned with those of the shareholders.

On the bright side the CEO is a key shareholder;truly aligned with the rest of the shareholders.


Yeah bright side but only to some extent. With the kind of bonuses he is getting +salary per month+ time value of money benefit, do you think even if the share price does not do so well, he will lose as much?

In any case, 3-5 years down the road if he smells disaster, he will be the first one to offload with the benefit of insider info

The shareholder here can easily get screwed



He's KES 200MM skin in the game. A decline of 10% hits him with KES 20MM. That will screw him unless he's a billionaire plus.

Though if I go as per @ngapat's theory the cash bonuses will soon make him one of the top owners while other shareholders wait for their capital gains or losses.


It won’t screw him as at the end of the year he still gets 34M in bonuses meaning he is 14M richer.

And he will be the second one to dump the stock. After Dj.

The screwee then will still be the current screwee!!!

Ps: See the Uchumi story.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
urstill1
#106 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 5:25:37 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 9/6/2013
Posts: 1,446
Location: In a house
Quote:
“Should there be a drop in shareholder wealth, payment will not be made and will be deferred until the year when shareholder wealth is restored,” Centum says in its latest annual report. Those who leave the company before being paid their bonus automatically forfeit the sums.


So the payment is not any time soon.
MaichBlack
#107 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 5:53:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,570
urstill1 wrote:
Quote:
“Should there be a drop in shareholder wealth, payment will not be made and will be deferred until the year when shareholder wealth is restored,” Centum says in its latest annual report. Those who leave the company before being paid their bonus automatically forfeit the sums.


So the payment is not any time soon.

That statement is bull crap!!! The bonuses are paid in three instalments only that every year you get three different bonuses.

Like next year, they will get the third instalment from last year's half a billion, 2nd instalment of this year's one billion and 1st instalment of what will definitely be next year's two billion.

This year they get the first instalment of this year's one billion and the previous instalment.

You give one bonus in three instalments but what they are not saying is that every year the employees get three different instalments!!!

When the sh!t hits the fan, do you think they will refund even a single cent? The worst would be for an instalment to be deffered to the following year (not cancelled!!!).
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
enyands
#108 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 8:27:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
MaichBlack wrote:
urstill1 wrote:
Quote:
“Should there be a drop in shareholder wealth, payment will not be made and will be deferred until the year when shareholder wealth is restored,” Centum says in its latest annual report. Those who leave the company before being paid their bonus automatically forfeit the sums.


So the payment is not any time soon.

That statement is bull crap!!! The bonuses are paid in three instalments only that every year you get three different bonuses.

Like next year, they will get the third instalment from last year's half a billion, 2nd instalment of this year's one billion and 1st instalment of what will definitely be next year's two billion.

This year they get the first instalment of this year's one billion and the previous instalment.

You give one bonus in three instalments but what they are not saying is that every year the employees get three different instalments!!!

When the sh!t hits the fan, do you think they will refund even a single cent? The worst would be for an instalment to be deffered to the following year (not cancelled!!!).



That's why we call it bologna and slap on the face . So three installment then next year another bonus of a billion then three installment again. I'll work for them like a donkey with just one installment in 5 years . Hapa ni kutuenjoy .this is just a family and friends circus feeding on shareholders money .remember and I repeat ,kenatco , uchumi , haco (their cooked books so as to sell to south africans investors ) and Centum should be next .
ngapat
#109 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 9:51:06 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 896
So bonus is based on increase in NAV.
NAV can rise even with a decline in profits and they still get paid.
NAV rise can be caused by revaluation of assets which means this has not been realized in cash and may not fetch the said price if actually sold.

Where does the cash to pay the bonuses come from when NAV rises from revaluation of assets?
It means cash dividend from companies centum has invested in is being 'eaten' by employees, no wonder the negative cash-flow.
Employees are using shareholders capital to enrich themselves.
The shareholder has been fooled with the NAV narrative while the employee’s pockets all the dividend income centum receives from companies it has invested in, all in the name of motivating employees. This type of bonus payment makes the employee a risk free partner who shares profits with the shareholder.
Isn't motivation being taken way too far?
More than the entire annual profits made by HFCK is what 90 employees are sharing and will rise over years as the company becomes bigger.
I won’t be surprised when the entire company ends up with the DJ and his cronies.
Wait for 2019 when they announce centum will freeze dividends for another ten years (Centum 4.0) and spark a sell from impatient investors and they will be the ones buying on the cheap, probably with the accumulated bonuses. They must be loving this NAV narrative and dividend freeze.
Clearly the employee’s interests are not aligned with that of the shareholders.
Employees who double as shareholders will be the real beneficially in the end as they will increase their shareholding with their bonuses and eventually take over the company at no cost.
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
murchr
#110 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 10:18:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Throw back>>>>
Quote:
In corporate finance, the agency problem usually refers to a conflict of interest between a company's management and the company's stockholders. The manager, acting as the agent for the shareholders, or principals, is supposed to make decisions that will maximize shareholder wealth.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
enyands
#111 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2015 10:55:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
ngapat wrote:
So bonus is based on increase in NAV.
NAV can rise even with a decline in profits and they still get paid.
NAV rise can be caused by revaluation of assets which means this has not been realized in cash and may not fetch the said price if actually sold.

Where does the cash to pay the bonuses come from when NAV rises from revaluation of assets?
It means cash dividend from companies centum has invested in is being 'eaten' by employees, no wonder the negative cash-flow.
Employees are using shareholders capital to enrich themselves.
The shareholder has been fooled with the NAV narrative while the employee’s pockets all the dividend income centum receives from companies it has invested in, all in the name of motivating employees. This type of bonus payment makes the employee a risk free partner who shares profits with the shareholder.
Isn't motivation being taken way too far?
More than the entire annual profits made by HFCK is what 90 employees are sharing and will rise over years as the company becomes bigger.
I won’t be surprised when the entire company ends up with the DJ and his cronies.
Wait for 2019 when they announce centum will freeze dividends for another ten years (Centum 4.0) and spark a sell from impatient investors and they will be the ones buying on the cheap, probably with the accumulated bonuses. They must be loving this NAV narrative and dividend freeze.
Clearly the employee’s interests are not aligned with that of the shareholders.
Employees who double as shareholders will be the real beneficially in the end as they will increase their shareholding with their bonuses and eventually take over the company at no cost.



This is true and I also foresee this too. Come the year when dividends are to be issued then the statement will be "there will be no other dividends till 2030". Then people will do massive sell off and same guys buy them cheap and own the company back and delist from nse .it's a smart game on his side bad but shareholder get the raw deal . It's just wrong
ngapat
#112 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 6:14:41 AM
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Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 896
It will be better for their performance to be based on ROA or ROE rather than NAV.
Let them give us market beating ROA's.

Problem is that they are the ones setting the performance parameters and they choose the easiest to achieve and manipulate.
I think it's the shareholder who should define what achievement he wants and pass it to employees as a target.

ROA/ROE will eliminate asset appreciation thuggery
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
Ericsson
#113 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:02:52 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,778
Location: NAIROBI
DJ has consolidated his shareholding to about 29%.Next thing you will hear is he will hawk that entire shareholding to South Africans pocket his profit.
The south africans will buy an empty overvalued shell;shareholders will have nothing to talk about.
The company is being fattened by DJ CK for slaughter or to the highest bidder;watch the space.He has no long term interest
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#114 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:05:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,778
Location: NAIROBI
That's the reason you see Centum doing so many projects at the same time.
The K-Rep stake they bought is to be disposed after five years and then they write we made a huge gain of xxx amount;similar to what they did to Carbacid.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#115 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:07:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,778
Location: NAIROBI
And from the profit/cash write we exceeded the target set at 15% by this and therefore employees will be entitled to this amount of bonus.
No re-investment in the company;fleecing shareholders
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Aguytrying
#116 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 10:22:46 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Ericsson wrote:
And from the profit/cash write we exceeded the target set at 15% by this and therefore employees will be entitled to this amount of bonus.
No re-investment in the company;fleecing shareholders


Yeah. Centum is a speculative company like tranny. Buy this, sell that. Like those private equity firms. That and trust issues is why I do not invest in centum
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
Horton
#117 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 11:25:29 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
Say what u wish, centrum is a 65bob stock soon. It's one of the very few companies trading at book value (or close to it). They have made some very smart moves, case in point 180,000 bob per acre in Vipingo. Where an acre is going for 16m. The CEO bought his stake at 64 bob. If u look at daily volumes, the demand easily outstrips supply. The coal project, which kicks off in Jan will be quite something financially. Also, with 2 rivers coming online, cash flows due to rent will greatly improve and due to the publicity of the largest mall in this side of the world, shares should do extremely well. I suggest you get on to this ship at reasonable prices before it's too late.
Kausha
#118 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 11:44:20 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/8/2007
Posts: 808
I think management should have given shareholders cash returns as reward fro their 5 year wait. Assuming 2-3 deals go wrong and they normally do,shareholders will endure the pain for nothing.
ngapat
#119 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:06:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 896
Horton wrote:
Say what u wish, centrum is a 65bob stock soon. It's one of the very few companies trading at book value (or close to it). They have made some very smart moves, case in point 180,000 bob per acre in Vipingo. Where an acre is going for 16m. The CEO bought his stake at 64 bob. If u look at daily volumes, the demand easily outstrips supply. The coal project, which kicks off in Jan will be quite something financially. Also, with 2 rivers coming online, cash flows due to rent will greatly improve and due to the publicity of the largest mall in this side of the world, shares should do extremely well. I suggest you get on to this ship at reasonable prices before it's too late.


What you say is true but the beneficiaries are employees. Imagine how much bonuses they will pocket from vipingo land when its used to calculate the NAV.
You will be bought out by force at one time by bonus rich employees and centum will delist
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
VituVingiSana
#120 Posted : Sunday, September 20, 2015 12:11:31 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,224
Location: Nairobi
ngapat wrote:
Horton wrote:
Say what u wish, centrum is a 65bob stock soon. It's one of the very few companies trading at book value (or close to it). They have made some very smart moves, case in point 180,000 bob per acre in Vipingo. Where an acre is going for 16m. The CEO bought his stake at 64 bob. If u look at daily volumes, the demand easily outstrips supply. The coal project, which kicks off in Jan will be quite something financially. Also, with 2 rivers coming online, cash flows due to rent will greatly improve and due to the publicity of the largest mall in this side of the world, shares should do extremely well. I suggest you get on to this ship at reasonable prices before it's too late.


What you say is true but the beneficiaries are employees. Imagine how much bonuses they will pocket from vipingo land when its used to calculate the NAV.
You will be bought out by force at one time by bonus rich employees and centum will delist

1) I don't think the Vipingo land is worth 16mn today but if Centum [at a cost] adds infrastructure [think 2 Rivers] then the value will jump from the 180,000 they paid.

2) One doesn't get bought out unless they offer their shares. There may be a compulsory acquisition but that requires 90% of the shares owned by the acquirer. Kirubi has 30% and even if the employees have 20% ... there's still 40% held by others.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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