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The Absurd
tycho
#21 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 2:38:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
aemathenge wrote:
My interest here rests on what fuels a group of people, the investors, to fork up millions of dollars required to turn such an absurdity into a reality.

Think of the absurdity.

A mass of Somali natives have the gumption to slay the mighty US Marines and drag their bodies along the dusty streets or Mogadishu or wherever.

It rankles, it hurts pride deeply, and it means loss of face.

Until Black Hawk Down turns this absurdity of unimagined loss into a crowning victory.


For me to understand absurdity I need to believe that there's a 'normal' I subscribe to, and aberration from this normal is likely to be an absurdity especially if it 'rubs me the wrong way'.

In such a case, the motivation of other groups of people become inaccessible. I must invent new words like 'terrorist' or 'infidel' to adjust my sight of the 'absurd'.
¿
#22 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 3:49:51 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
aemathenge wrote:
My interest here rests on what fuels a group of people, the investors, to fork up millions of dollars required to turn such an absurdity into a reality.

Think of the absurdity.

A mass of Somali natives have the gumption to slay the mighty US Marines and drag their bodies along the dusty streets or Mogadishu or wherever.

It rankles, it hurts pride deeply, and it means loss of face.

Until Black Hawk Down turns this absurdity of unimagined loss into a crowning victory.


Quote:
In philosophy, "the Absurd" refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life and the human inability to find any. In this context absurd does not mean "logically impossible", but rather "humanly impossible".


Quote:
The third option is to either construct or adopt a belief structure that provides a practical reprieve from the impossibility of true meaning while never actually rejecting that the system used is itself also meaningless.


aemathenge
#23 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 3:58:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
tycho wrote:
For me to understand absurdity I need to believe that there's a 'normal' I subscribe to, and aberration from this normal is likely to be an absurdity especially if it 'rubs me the wrong way'.


Very well.

I present to you a “normal” that is male circumcision among the Luo community. This community, their women included, hold the belief that they prefer their men “whole”. That is, uncircumcised.

To them, it is not “normal” to circumcise their boys/youth/men. It is an “absurdity” to circumcise their boys/youth/men. Having sex with such a circumcised boy/youth/man was “rubbing someone the wrong way” so to speak.

Out in the U S of fn A, a Lab Rat designs a virus that gets named Human Immuno Virus and sets it loose among the Gay community of San Francisco.

With no time, its product, Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome has jumped from the Gay community into “normally” sexually oriented people. It starts killing with reckless abandon. For a long time, it was acknowledged that getting HIV was a death sentence.

This death reap spread all over the world including among the Luo community.

Then someone came up with findings that a circumcised boy/youth/man has reduced chances of acquiring Human Immuno Virus during sexual intercourse.

Suddenly, having sex with a circumcised Luo boy/youth/man is no longer an absurdity to contemplate. Circumcising them is no longer an absurdity. Tradition gets thrown out of the “hot bed.” An American Lab Rat has made an "absurdity" a reality.

Did I understand your understanding of “absurdity”, your subscription of “normal”, possible aberration from such a “normal” and its absurdity “rubbing you the wrong way” correctly with my analogy hereto?

Play do tell.
aemathenge
#24 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 4:04:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
¿ wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
My interest here rests on what fuels a group of people, the investors, to fork up millions of dollars required to turn such an absurdity into a reality.

Think of the absurdity.

A mass of Somali natives have the gumption to slay the mighty US Marines and drag their bodies along the dusty streets or Mogadishu or wherever.

It rankles, it hurts pride deeply, and it means loss of face.

Until Black Hawk Down turns this absurdity of unimagined loss into a crowning victory.


Quote:
In philosophy, "the Absurd" refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life and the human inability to find any. In this context absurd does not mean "logically impossible", but rather "humanly impossible".


Quote:
The third option is to either construct or adopt a belief structure that provides a practical reprieve from the impossibility of true meaning while never actually rejecting that the system used is itself also meaningless.




Quote:


Only when absurdity arises because your truth is my falsehood and vice versa.
¿
#25 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 4:28:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
aemathenge wrote:
¿ wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
My interest here rests on what fuels a group of people, the investors, to fork up millions of dollars required to turn such an absurdity into a reality.

Think of the absurdity.

A mass of Somali natives have the gumption to slay the mighty US Marines and drag their bodies along the dusty streets or Mogadishu or wherever.

It rankles, it hurts pride deeply, and it means loss of face.

Until Black Hawk Down turns this absurdity of unimagined loss into a crowning victory.


Quote:
In philosophy, "the Absurd" refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life and the human inability to find any. In this context absurd does not mean "logically impossible", but rather "humanly impossible".


Quote:
The third option is to either construct or adopt a belief structure that provides a practical reprieve from the impossibility of true meaning while never actually rejecting that the system used is itself also meaningless.




Quote:


Only when absurdity arises because your truth is my falsehood and vice versa.


Relativity. Meaningless.

Quote:
There are no facts, only interpretations. — Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power


Introduction: The dictatorship of relativism

aemathenge
#26 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 4:49:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
¿ wrote:
Relativity. Meaningless.

And therein lies the issue. My interpretation is mine. Your interpretation is yours.

Each may be a minority. Each may be the average. Each may be one held among the majority.

My only prayer is that we all support "our" interpretations with easily discernable "evidence" and not hide behind the banality of "learned" discourse.

Otherwise, what use is it? What value do "we" attach to an interpretation?
¿
#27 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 5:09:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
aemathenge wrote:
¿ wrote:
Relativity. Meaningless.

And therein lies the issue. My interpretation is mine. Your interpretation is yours.

Each may be a minority. Each may be the average. Each may be one held among the majority.

My only prayer is that we all support "our" interpretations with easily discernable "evidence" and not hide behind the banality of "learned" discourse.

Otherwise, what use is it? What value do "we" attach to an interpretation?


That's the point.

There is no easily discernible "evidence" and there is also no "evidence" to show that the "evidence" is admissible to be "evidence" in the search for meaning.

That is using meaning in the search for meaning but you've already found meaning so it ceases being a search for meaning.

What use is it? That's the search. Any value given to any interpretation is meaningless unless meaning is found.
kaka2za
#28 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 7:51:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 4,057
Location: Gwitu
And all am reading here is absurd because I have no idea what you guys are on about.
Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
Othelo
#29 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 8:45:35 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 1/20/2014
Posts: 3,528
kaka2za wrote:
And all am reading here is absurd because I have no idea what you guys are on about.

Tuko wengi Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
¿
#30 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 9:03:03 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
kaka2za wrote:
And all am reading here is absurd because I have no idea what you guys are on about.


Humans have a desire to find meaning but existence is meaningless. That is "the absurd".

To confront this situation, everyone can choose to create their own meaning i.e. you can do,think or believe whatever you want. How you arrive at your meaning is also meaningless.

smile
tycho
#31 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 10:17:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
And all am reading here is absurd because I have no idea what you guys are on about.


Humans have a desire to find meaning but existence is meaningless. That is "the absurd".

To confront this situation, everyone can choose to create their own meaning i.e. you can do,think or believe whatever you want. How you arrive at your meaning is also meaningless.

smile


It's like expecting a mango tree to give oranges. No matter how much you curse and beat it up it's meaningless. Absurd indeed.
tycho
#32 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 10:28:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
aemathenge wrote:
tycho wrote:
For me to understand absurdity I need to believe that there's a 'normal' I subscribe to, and aberration from this normal is likely to be an absurdity especially if it 'rubs me the wrong way'.


Very well.

I present to you a “normal” that is male circumcision among the Luo community. This community, their women included, hold the belief that they prefer their men “whole”. That is, uncircumcised.

To them, it is not “normal” to circumcise their boys/youth/men. It is an “absurdity” to circumcise their boys/youth/men. Having sex with such a circumcised boy/youth/man was “rubbing someone the wrong way” so to speak.

Out in the U S of fn A, a Lab Rat designs a virus that gets named Human Immuno Virus and sets it loose among the Gay community of San Francisco.

With no time, its product, Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome has jumped from the Gay community into “normally” sexually oriented people. It starts killing with reckless abandon. For a long time, it was acknowledged that getting HIV was a death sentence.

This death reap spread all over the world including among the Luo community.

Then someone came up with findings that a circumcised boy/youth/man has reduced chances of acquiring Human Immuno Virus during sexual intercourse.

Suddenly, having sex with a circumcised Luo boy/youth/man is no longer an absurdity to contemplate. Circumcising them is no longer an absurdity. Tradition gets thrown out of the “hot bed.” An American Lab Rat has made an "absurdity" a reality.

Did I understand your understanding of “absurdity”, your subscription of “normal”, possible aberration from such a “normal” and its absurdity “rubbing you the wrong way” correctly with my analogy hereto?

Play do tell.


You're mostly right. Only 'tradition' is transformed instead of being thrown out. And the agent of change isn't the lab Rat per se, but the 'experiencer' of the transformation.
tycho
#33 Posted : Monday, August 17, 2015 10:35:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Long dead philosophers had their point to make, but they were just human. Limited as others now. Yet that's the strength and fuel for new ideas and perspectives.

Let's have a taste of a contemporary philosopher http://www.newyorker.com...011/09/05/how-to-be-good
¿
#34 Posted: : Monday, August 17, 2015 11:27:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
Long dead philosophers had their point to make, but they were just human. Limited as others now. Yet that's the strength and fuel for new ideas and perspectives.

Let's have a taste of a contemporary philosopher http://www.newyorker.com...11/09/05/how-to-be-good


Quote:
Parfit believes that there are true answers to moral questions, just as there are to mathematical ones. Humans can perceive these truths, through a combination of intuition and critical reasoning, but they remain true whether humans perceive them or not. He believes that there is nothing more urgent for him to do in his brief time on earth than discover what these truths are and persuade others of their reality.He believes that without moral truth the world would be a bleak place in which nothing mattered.


'New' isn't necessarily 'better','true' or new.The 'new' ideas and perspectives are meaningless just like the methods used to arrive at them.

Unless meaning has been found,persuasion is nothing more than the pursuit of dictatorship based on meaningless relativistic views.

tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
And all am reading here is absurd because I have no idea what you guys are on about.


Humans have a desire to find meaning but existence is meaningless. That is "the absurd".

To confront this situation, everyone can choose to create their own meaning i.e. you can do,think or believe whatever you want. How you arrive at your meaning is also meaningless.

smile


It's like expecting a mango tree to give oranges. No matter how much you curse and beat it up it's meaningless. Absurd indeed.


Indeed. Absurd.
tycho
#35 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 7:39:44 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?
¿
#36 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 10:15:42 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?


Your guess is wrong.

Meaningless - without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant.

tycho
#37 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 12:25:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?


Your guess is wrong.

Meaningless - without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant.



If my guess is 'wrong' then there must be a 'correct' guess. Or better still I can ask, 'what do you 'mean' or 'signify' by putting some words in bold?
¿
#38 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 2:24:36 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?


Your guess is wrong.

Meaningless - without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant.



If my guess is 'wrong' then there must be a 'correct' guess. Or better still I can ask, 'what do you 'mean' or 'signify' by putting some words in bold?


I see.

Like the long dead philosophers,his views and methods are based on belief.
tycho
#39 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 2:31:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?


Your guess is wrong.

Meaningless - without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant.



If my guess is 'wrong' then there must be a 'correct' guess. Or better still I can ask, 'what do you 'mean' or 'signify' by putting some words in bold?


I see.

Like the long dead philosophers,his views and methods are based on belief.


What do you see?

So there's meaning to your action. The meaning is your perception of reliance on belief of a philosopher like those 'long dead'.

¿
#40 Posted : Tuesday, August 18, 2015 2:38:34 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿, I see that you've put some words in bold, and I guess that these words in bold somehow seek to affirm your belief in the absurd.

But I need to ask you some questions so that I may understand you better. For example, does it mean anything to say that something is 'meaningless'? Or rather, do you mean anything by saying 'meaning'?


Your guess is wrong.

Meaningless - without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant.



If my guess is 'wrong' then there must be a 'correct' guess. Or better still I can ask, 'what do you 'mean' or 'signify' by putting some words in bold?


I see.

Like the long dead philosophers,his views and methods are based on belief.


What do you see?

So there's meaning to your action. The meaning is your perception of reliance on belief of a philosopher like those 'long dead'.



Only meaning can give meaning to my actions but the meaning you've created for yourself has been noted.
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