What a great discussion we have had!!

If the Kikuyu or Kalenjins or Luo had gotten civilized as the first group in the world and were able to document their creations stories, then that could be the religion of the world 1000 years later. Assuming the Maasai had written a story of how God lowered them from above using a cow skin and how God instructed them to lead their ways, then go ahead and taught the uncivilized religions of their beliefs, do you know that maybe their story would have been adopted as the true religion of teh world? Its through that same same way that religion exists in the world today. Some pple got civilized faster than others and decided to document and spread their beliefs to the uncivilized!!!

I believe that there is a super creator, the one who ensures order in the universe. There surely has to be one. But i do not believe that he had a son through which we should contact him. i also do not believe that there existed a prophet through which people must contact God through him! So Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and all the other religions are just rubbish.

My question that i keep wondering about is why does the creator, in this case called God, allow us to suffer then yet he is there?

I think in some way i can agree with you now! So its like the creator just put us here and says that whoever makes it or not is upto the environment and happenings while he doesnt have a say on how he will control the happenings in the environment!!

A more useful experiment would be to bring the mound of dirt and ask the Gods of various religions such as Christianity, Islam, African traditions etc to create a human out of it. So we can eliminate the posers.

Trying to twist my words? I talked about YOU and ME... Not GOD! If you can create, we'll talk! If I create, hopefully you'll allow us to talk! If neither of US can, then what is there to discuss... ?

You were created, I was created, no? You did not create me, neither did I create you... You believe what you want to believe about your creation, I'll do so with mine. Live and let live

NTV have a short one as regards garissa attacks dubbed 'Children of a lesser god'

So, would you call Jihad a gift?

I would have it no other way!

So you are still searching and that, friend, is a right answer!

Is there space for revision as we solve, as in, as new information comes to light can we go back and clarify what we previously thought was clouded?

Interesting. Quite.

What you say are the biggest tools/tricks are not something you have not done yourself.

For example, since you were born you have surely made yet unverified promises to certain individuals who are still waiting for what you promised them - if they can remember them. Naturally, you have a narrative at hand to explain the whys and hows of your promises.

I am sure also that at some point you have thought of dying without the benefit of details of the how and when. Whatever the speculations of the remaining living, those dead knew the time of their death had arrived and without the luxury of revision went through that ultimate strait. We, the living, can only wonder and speculate about it so definitely yes, there is bias - that we do not know and are ill informed.

We have discoursed about excessive emotionalism here at length and most here I am sure are of the agreement that it hardly is a trustworthy constituent of religion. I have no need to rehearse those sentiments.

My take on the big fire is that it is 'merciful'. Like euthanasia. I do not believe the endless burning, as popularly depicted, is consistent in character with the christian narrative, rightly understood. It is certainly and rightly despicable to suppose that is the case. The Muslim depiction is however different.

As for madrassa, I do not feel capable to comment for the methodologies used. I comment against it too. Because I do believe that education, wherever it may be applied secular or otherwise, is much more than rote learning and memorisation of text.

Winning or losing, sometimes to lose is to win. It depends on among other things the end. I gave an example earlier of remaining in prison being the better option preferable to being bailed out.

I will return with the other points ,,,

The bad:

It is only natural that effects follows the cause. 'It is even written'. Any other view is a lazy view and must be pointed out so. This artificial creation of confusion is a misrepresentation. Cognisance of the relationship between cause and effect hence leads to most brilliant discussions. Hence science becomes an interesting course of study for him who is not confused about cause and effect. What then are the chances of this person being duped by charlatans disguised in sheep clothes?

Can such a person be found? Absolutely! Can such a person be a christian? Absolutely! It only happens that they are not as voluble and as annoying as those who personify the bad who incidentally also know that one 'reaps what one sows' yet still maintain a disconnect to practise.

Let there not be too much discussion, all have read / heard the Gospel, and everyone is free to make his/her decision. If you have heard the Gospel and decided it is not true and there is no after life, this is your decision we will respect you, kindly also respect those who choose to believe.
Revelation 22:11
Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy."

Back to the issue. Question: "Does God allow evil?"

Answer: The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:

1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.

Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.

2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.

While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?

3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.

Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42). In the case of Garissa, intelligence was available on impending attack, however, people in authority could have foiled the attack, but failed either through omissions / commission. Should we blame God for the consequences if someone in authority makes a conscious decision to be negligent? That said, there are some mysteries we will not know answers in the present life, just like we did not know when we were being born or we don't know when the curtain will fall. Even the Lord Jesus does not know the time of His second coming, this is a secret only the Father knows

Some verses to ponder:
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
Matthew 3:2
"Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near."

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
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