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NIC Bank Results
guru267
#21 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:37:28 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
@wa_ithaka no need to call anyone SLOW... first of all i'm not @VVS and secondly i know NIC needs capital but a rights issue wouldnt work because shareholders would not take up those rights and they wouldnt even approve it... since they already had one 2 years ago..
NIC knows this and thats why they were INTELLIGENT enough not to do it...
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
sparkly
#22 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:44:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Gordon Gekko wrote:
@vvs, loan provisions are taxable only if they are specific provisions...
i think you mean't to say 'not taxable' or 'tax deductible'.
@gathinga CBK prudential guidelines require banks to make a minimum general provision of 1% of total loans. A further general provision of 3% is made for accounts on the 'watch list' ie high probability of default. This explains your observation. It also shows that EB has many accounts on the 'watch list'
Life is short. Live passionately.
Wa_ithaka
#23 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:01:37 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
guru267- i guess we got 2 slow ones today. Its nothing to do with whether shareholders want to take rights issue or not. NIC will need to raise its capital this yr or next.
Btw, in case you were unaware, several UK/US banks (ever heard of Lloyds TSB?) have done 2 huge rights issue in the last 18months.
As a shareholder, you either get dimunation of your stake's value or you take up your rights.
PS-an investor has to be able to look through the noise and pick out the fundamentals
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
Gordon Gekko
#24 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:19:52 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 3,760
@sparkly, thanks for the correection. Hi kizungu ina wenyewe......
VituVingiSana
#25 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:16:59 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,137
Location: Nairobi
Gordon Gekko wrote:
@vvs, loan provisions are taxable only if they are specific provisions. General provisions, which I suspect these are, are not tax deductable. Also, when soecific provisions are finally recovered, the tax earlier relieved becomes payable.

General Provisions (1% of all loans) are incremental (based on loans adjusted for risk) over prior periods. The details in Annual Reports provides that information but most of the increase in Specific Provisions are what drives the LLPs for most banks. Equity might be the exception where Loan Growth has been very impressive!
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#26 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:20:32 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,137
Location: Nairobi
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Vvs-are u especially slow? Please re-re-read my first comment on NIC Posted: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:05:26 PM.
I said NIC needs capital. hence a rights issue is better than a bonus.

Wow... if I am slow... I have no idea about you...

So, I ask again... What (significant) difference does it make to their capital structure that NIC gave a bonus?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Wa_ithaka
#27 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:41:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Last shot at this. NIC will need to increase its capital. Potentially, the cheapest way for it would have been to do a rights issue which would increase number of shares but also raise capital. A bonus share issue just increases the number of shares in issue but has no capital impact.
A stupid move. Well looks like a duck, quacks a like...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
Scubidu
#28 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:20:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@Wa_ithaka. As I recall a bonus issue is often referred to as a stock dividend, an alternative to the cash dividend and necessary to reward investors or re-distribute (sometimes unproductive) reserves. Last time NIC used their share premium reserve for the bonus issue. There's no correlation between a bonus issue and a rights issue, they are meant to achieve different functions, so how can you claim it's stupid? As vvs has said there's no material effect on the capital structure...you should be making the case as to why it was stupid as compared to paying a dividend in cash. Rights issue can still go ahead with greater leeway on the discount price.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
sparkly
#29 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:09:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Last shot at this. NIC will need to increase its capital. Potentially, the cheapest way for it would have been to do a rights issue which would increase number of shares but also raise capital. A bonus share issue just increases the number of shares in issue but has no capital impact.
A stupid move. Well looks like a duck, quacks a like...

@wa-ithaka i beg to differ. Issuing a bonus has a capital implication. During a bonus issue the company capitalises the profit reserves hence issuing fully paid shares on the profit reserves! If this doesn't increase capital, then i must also be slow. On issuing rights, the amount of cash raised in a rights issue depends on the price of shares and uptake from shareholders. If nic were to issue rights now, the issue would have to be less than the market price of 35. If the share rises to 50, it can issue rights at close to sh 50. Its logical to issue rights when the market is high.
Life is short. Live passionately.
Wa_ithaka
#30 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:41:48 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Sparkly-when i read your response, I almost (almost) shed a tear. This is in a nutshell is why we Kenyans get so easily conned. VVS can you help sparkly understand the difference between a bonus and a rights issue and the impact they both have on capital. Thanks

Hint-a bank's capital=shareholder funds + retained earnings. Plus preferred shares where allowable...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
VituVingiSana
#31 Posted : Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:39:47 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,137
Location: Nairobi
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Last shot at this. NIC will need to increase its capital. Potentially, the cheapest way for it would have been to do a rights issue which would increase number of shares but also raise capital. A bonus share issue just increases the number of shares in issue but has no capital impact.
A stupid move. Well looks like a duck, quacks a like...

OK... so they need to raise capital by a Right Offer... That is not what you said when you referred to me as slow...

But that still does not answer my questions... So explain to me like I am a 6 year old so what if NIC gave a bonus (re-shuffle between line items in the Capital Structure)? Why are your knickers in a tight about the bonus?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Kerabu901
#32 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 4:07:05 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/15/2007
Posts: 3
Wa-Ithaka i would suggest that a bonus issue is actually a way of raising capital. Capital doesnt have to be external..by giving shareholders shares as dividends, NIC saves funds (capital) that would have been paid out as those dividends. Thus a bonus issue plays several roles, among them sending some signals to the market, raising internally generated capital and appeasing shareholders.

This is done with the believe that the funds so preserved will have a ROE such that in future they will have generated enough returns to fund the increased due dividends..since for dividend expecting shareholders a bonus issue is just a mere deferrement of the same and it also increased the shares outstanding.

I hope am not slowSad
gathinga
#33 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 5:34:14 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/30/2006
Posts: 635
@Waithaka it was a bit callous to call VVS slow knowing rather well the he is one of the more informed ones on this forum regarding matters of stocks

On the issue, Bonus shares are to be issued from reserves which are already capital in themselves. So this is just a matter of changing the nomenclature of a section of capital from reserves to share capital.

The point you have raised and which I think is valid, is that NIC will need additional capital going forward. This could be raised through rights (as you have suggested) or through debt.

From their announcement, the directors do not agree that this is the timing to raise such capital. What you should provide here is reasons and analysis (ratios) why you feel fresh capital is required!!

ps: dont call me slow, am rather fast!
VituVingiSana
#34 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 6:29:34 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,137
Location: Nairobi
@gathinga - I dont care if @waithaka calls me slow as long as he proves I was erroneous... at which point I would agree with him...

Lakini, he has avoided answering the question I posed... as to why does the bonus make any (significant) difference in NIC's capital structure that gets his tights in a tight?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Scubidu
#35 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 6:59:14 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@waithaka. There's a bigger picture, how do shareholders benefit from NIC’s share premium? Can you distribute dividends from them? And just look at NIC Bank’s cash reserve holdings up by 1 bn in 2009 alone (they need cash), the share premium reserve can cover the bonus easily without impacting cash reserves.

In 2007 the share premium surplus resulting from the rights issue was distributed as a bonus, 2009’s bonus was paid from the share premium, 2010’s premium reserve will likely pay the current bonus and any proposed rights issue in 2010 will create a surplus premium reserves on which future bonus can be made...these payments enhance capital retention.

So in reality this is a clever idea on three fronts (1) cash don’t leave the business (2) unproductive reserves are utilized and (3) investors are happy with a stock dividend. If the issue is capital adequacy it can be raised by retaining earnings or a fresh injection. There is no capital implication in the bonus, so retained earnings remain unchanged and the reason why KCB and NIC (who need capital the most) maintained the same final dividend.

The bonus will lower the market price giving potential investors in any rights issue more incentive to buy them as the capital outlay on the discounted price is less. All in all the payment of a bonus doesn’t not hinder the management’s ability to raise funds.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wa_ithaka
#36 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 7:50:01 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Scubidu has gottten what I was alluding to.
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
sparkly
#37 Posted : Friday, February 26, 2010 6:12:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Sparkly-when i read your response, I almost (almost) shed a tear. This is in a nutshell is why we Kenyans get so easily conned. VVS can you help sparkly understand the difference between a bonus and a rights issue and the impact they both have on capital. Thanks

Hint-a bank's capital=shareholder funds + retained earnings. Plus preferred shares where allowable...

Mmmmh hint taken, but back to the basics - How do you re-distribute the reserves once capitalised?
Have you heard of the law against reduction of capital (basic company law stuff)and am not talking of capital as per your hint.

My point-at this particular time the best that NIC can do is to "capitalise" the reserves pending a good time to issue rights.
Life is short. Live passionately.
qw25041985
#38 Posted : Saturday, August 07, 2010 6:05:45 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/9/2010
Posts: 1,418
Location: Nai
I also wait for NIC bank half year result 4 year 2010 . I know they'll be gud. And once we know how their Tz operations are doing it'll be very exiting .
Your future depends on your dreams so go to sleep !
underweight
#39 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:43:34 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 184
Location: For now El-Fashier - Darfur
This counter traded over 1 Million shares (1,263,700) today at high of 45 and low of 43 with an average of 44.75. A whooping 4.07 % gain!!! What am I missing here?? Anyone with projected 1H results. Anything in the offing?
"A bad decision made now is beta that a good one made later!!"
underweight
#40 Posted : Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:53:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 184
Location: For now El-Fashier - Darfur
Laughing out loudly does the silence on this mean its about to explode or burst.???..!! Or someone is holding the information close to himself before it goes public??
"A bad decision made now is beta that a good one made later!!"
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