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The Tale of 2 Countries Kenya & Singapore
Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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Lolest! wrote:Quote:The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.    Just because most Kenyan communities were governed by councils of elders doesn't mean all Africans were like that!  , primary school history must have been written by some ignorant folks, because i swear i was taught about some tu kingdoms in africa - wacha nikimbie Wikipedia nika confirm. You mean even that ka shaka series kbc was fond of airing was fake.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Best thread ever  @timbosho, mkeid and Torio. Keep the brain racking. @Tycho please keep contributing with simple english. @Masukuma, you are lost, calm down and try and read the thread from page 1. Question. What is Africas/kenyas biggest problem? The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.Once the brits left us 50 years ago we got a piece of land called kenya. This could as well have been kenganda had the brits decided to have a single administration in east africa. Infact is there a subsaharan country that is cohesive and proud of their country. The Asians may have been conquered by the European in the 17th century to date. But records show they have lived in organised societies for years. It was therefore easy for them to pick up from where the colonialists left. What is that? "Organization of a people"? Did you fall from a tree? You are clearly displaying your ignorance "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 8/23/2013 Posts: 34
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nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili.  you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. What matters more is how an individual changes collective behavior and how regularly this happens in a society.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/27/2012 Posts: 851 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:mkeiy wrote:masukuma wrote:
you see other races doing stuff and you think... hey... why have we not done that? how come africans have not [INSERT ACHIEVEMENT HERE] not realising that the situation is more complex that what you can comprehend.... Naturally you think... 50 years is a long time we should have been like [INSERT ASIAN TIGER HERE] because we got independence at the same time (like years of independence is some sort of metric that contributes to growth or "development"... but I digress). What you want is to be seen like others, to have some form of pride... like others. You think that people need to do some things to be seen as people and you want africans to have done some of those things and your bitterness is that... here in lies the very root of your problem - the problem to be seen as a 'person' in the eyes of other races or so you think. You think that if we could only do [INSERT SOME ACHIEVEMENT HERE] we would be in the ranks of 'people'. You think that you will have some social currency if your people built some contraption and sailed the seas 6k yrs ago... too bad... not such thing happened. As for the other achievements you are seeking? Well... we have not done [INSERT ACHIEVEMENT HERE]! that's a fact... we are not the only ones not to have done that. polynesian, american indians, inuits, mongolians, australian aborigines, people from papua new guinea, latinas e.t.c. have not done it.... but that's not even the point the point is YOUR BEING A HUMAN BEING (PERSON) HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOUR SOCIETY'S/ANCESTORS' ACHIEVEMENTS.
can someone answer my question... why do all these IQ issues emanate from one Race? We don't here it for the people at the very end of the so called intelligence bell curve. Just because the others don't bother with it,doesn't render it meaningless.
disease, famine e.t.c. are also contextual.... even if we had exactly the same context... even if we were right in the middle of the old world not having the sahara separating us from the rest of the 'action'. Even if we were right in the center of things and we did nothing... we would still have been humans (people)...since the being human has nothing to do with doing stuff.
@Masukuma. What are you saying? Are you saying it was meaningless for those who had advanced in medicine/ technology/literature etc to have done so? Did the African choose not advance? Or was he simply unable to? For the last 2,000 years, what was the African doing? What is the African doing now? A lot might not have been documented,WHY? In places where there was documentation, there was some sort of education system. Students could study lit, maths, science etc etc become engineers, writers,philosophers. In East & Central Africa, without schools, where were the engineers,doctors, financial analysts etc to come from? The factors that made Singapore/S.Korea to be at par with Kenya were man made. They have a history of achievements stretching more than 3,000 years whereas he in Kenya, our history & achievements hardly stretch 200 years. In short, i think some people cultures have had enough 'developmental' time, we on the other hand, we are just starting to crawl. That's how Singapore is where it is and Kenya is where it is. yeah... let's say we have answers to all those questions... so? you ask about the last 2000 years...why stop there? well the modern human has been walking this planet for 150k-200k years - WHAT THE F**K WERE THEY DOING ALL THIS TIME? they suddenly woke up 10k years ago? what was up with the 140k-190k years? Biologically speaking they were the same lot - right? just a few cosmetic changes in hair color, eye color, density of melanin e.t.c.... so to answer your question... Africans had been doing exactly the same S**t the rest of the humans were doing for 140k-190k years - so sue us! Accept your fate and don't be bitter, cut corners when you can - the rules are not made for you. And by the way - you need to answer the question... when you get to be Singapore or Malaysia or Japan or China or US or Sweden... SO? will you be more human than you are now? @Masukuma, Cha kwanza, ACHA MA-ROHO! It is not about you,"accept your fate". Cha pili, ACHANA NA UJINGA! "The Tale Of 2 Countries Kenya & Singapore". If you didn't know, that is the title of this thread and that's what's under discussion. About your "SO" "if we advance bla ble bli"? PLEASE NOTE,the very language and tools we are using here on Wazua to discuss, are thanks to the lil' advancement we've made so far. If it's so meaningless, why don't you embrace the ways of the East African of 200 years ago.
Of not being able to read and write. For in depth discussion of your question "If we advance just as the rest ,so"? please indulge me. START A THREAD FOR THAT. For a start, if we get to be "Singapore or Malaysia or Japan or China or US or Sweden", a lot of what ails us will subside. Hunger, disease, poverty and lastly,yours truly, UJINGA!
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 8/23/2013 Posts: 34
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tycho wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. What matters more is how an individual changes collective behavior and how regularly this happens in a society. Where were these individuals who can influence collective behaviour in Africa and why were they unable to make their influence count in the days gone by, unlike their counterparts in Asia, Latin America and Europe? Where are they now?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Best thread ever @timbosho, mkeid and Torio. Keep the brain racking. @Tycho please keep contributing with simple english. @Masukuma, you are lost, calm down and try and read the thread from page 1. Question. What is Africas/kenyas biggest problem? The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.Once the brits left us 50 years ago we got a piece of land called kenya. This could as well have been kenganda had the brits decided to have a single administration in east africa. Infact is there a subsaharan country that is cohesive and proud of their country. The Asians may have been conquered by the European in the 17th century to date. But records show they have lived in organised societies for years. It was therefore easy for them to pick up from where the colonialists left. What is that? "Organization of a people"? Did you fall from a tree? You are clearly displaying your ignorance We are trying to understand why we are what we are as an African people. I didn't fall from a tree. From my history in primary school, the notable kingdoms in ssa were Shaka of the zulu, mzilikazi of the ndebele whose recorded achievement were resisting the colonialists. The Buganda kings who cooperated etc. There are also the west African kingdoms of songai and mali but these ones had very strong islamic influences. The point is if you leave out the islamic civilisations in west africa, there is no evidence that these kingdoms were organised into states. What I mean is where is the Inca type civilisation in SSA. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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mkeiy wrote:
@Masukuma,
Cha kwanza, ACHA MA-ROHO! It is not about you,"accept your fate".
Cha pili, ACHANA NA UJINGA!
"The Tale Of 2 Countries Kenya & Singapore". If you didn't know, that is the title of this thread and that's what's under discussion.
About your "SO" "if we advance bla ble bli"? PLEASE NOTE,the very language and tools we are using here on Wazua to discuss, are thanks to the lil' advancement we've made so far. If it's so meaningless, why don't you embrace the ways of the East African of 200 years ago.
Of not being able to read and write.
For in depth discussion of your question "If we advance just as the rest ,so"? please indulge me. START A THREAD FOR THAT.
For a start, if we get to be "Singapore or Malaysia or Japan or China or US or Sweden", a lot of what ails us will subside. Hunger, disease, poverty and lastly,yours truly, UJINGA!
wacha machungu... your issue and the issues of you ilk that keep talking about Singapore are just about Keeping up with the Joneses... you keep askin g yourself... TUTAWAFIKIA LINI? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/27/2012 Posts: 851 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:mkeiy wrote:
@Masukuma,
Cha kwanza, ACHA MA-ROHO! It is not about you,"accept your fate".
Cha pili, ACHANA NA UJINGA!
"The Tale Of 2 Countries Kenya & Singapore". If you didn't know, that is the title of this thread and that's what's under discussion.
About your "SO" "if we advance bla ble bli"? PLEASE NOTE,the very language and tools we are using here on Wazua to discuss, are thanks to the lil' advancement we've made so far. If it's so meaningless, why don't you embrace the ways of the East African of 200 years ago.
Of not being able to read and write.
For in depth discussion of your question "If we advance just as the rest ,so"? please indulge me. START A THREAD FOR THAT.
For a start, if we get to be "Singapore or Malaysia or Japan or China or US or Sweden", a lot of what ails us will subside. Hunger, disease, poverty and lastly,yours truly, UJINGA!
wacha machungu... your issue and the issues of you ilk that keep talking about Singapore are just about Keeping up with the Joneses... you keep askin g yourself... TUTAWAFIKIA LINI? @Masukuma. The blue part dude, the blue part!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. hapo sawa, ka ni guesswork. But the trend I can pick out from the top of my guess list is one where the states that have progressed (i.e as dictated by the west) usually have very strong leadership associated with them, at least at the onset. the Romans with their julius, the greeks with their alexander, the germans with their hitler, the immigrates with their george and abraham, the brits with their elizabeth, the french with their napoleon, the egyptians with their pharaoh, the south americans with their wayna, singapore with their lee, kenya with their kenyatta ... The downside for a people that fail to sire great leaders is a lack of development (again as defined by hollywood). now tying all this to the thread, kenya and singapore - one had a strong leader during its rapid development phase and the other, well ... a few jurors are still holding back the verdict. From my view, I don't think the collective abilities of the singapore guys as compared to kenya explains the difference - I think for them it comes down to leadership as compared to kenya.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. hapo sawa, ka ni guesswork. But the trend I can pick out from the top of my guess list is one where the states that have progressed (i.e as dictated by the west) usually have very strong leadership associated with them, at least at the onset. the Romans with their julius, the greeks with their alexander, the germans with their hitler, the immigrates with their george and abraham, the brits with their elizabeth, the french with their napoleon, the egyptians with their pharaoh, the south americans with their wayna, singapore with their lee, kenya with their kenyatta ... The downside for a people that fail to sire great leaders is a lack of development (again as defined by hollywood). now tying all this to the thread, kenya and singapore - one had a strong leader during its rapid development phase and the other, well ... a few jurors are still holding back the verdict. From my view, I don't think the collective abilities of the singapore guys as compared to kenya explains the difference - I think for them it comes down to leadership as compared to kenya. What is leadership in your view? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
We are trying to understand why we are what we are as an African people. I didn't fall from a tree. From my history in primary school, the notable kingdoms in ssa were Shaka of the zulu, mzilikazi of the ndebele whose recorded achievement were resisting the colonialists. The Buganda kings who cooperated etc. There are also the west African kingdoms of songai and mali but these ones had very strong islamic influences.
The point is if you leave out the islamic civilisations in west africa, there is no evidence that these kingdoms were organised into states. What I mean is where is the Inca type civilisation in SSA.
si watu wanapenda kujijustify! Quote:By the mid-19th century, Buganda had doubled and redoubled its territory conquering much on Bunyoro and becoming the dominant state in the region. Newly conquered lands were placed under chiefs nominated by the king. Buganda's armies and the royal tax collectors traveled swiftly to all parts of the kingdom along specially constructed roads which crossed streams and swamps by bridges and viaducts. On Lake Victoria (which the Ganda called Nnalubale), a royal navy of outrigger canoes, commanded by an admiral who was chief of the Lungfish clan, could transport Baganda commandos to raid any shore of the lake. I remember from my Histo class that the Baganda had a judiciary and a parliament!! so now West Africa's kingdoms are due to Islam? Why didn't Eastern Africa Muslims have the same? Let's not even leave Eastern Africa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Rwanda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Empire
Tutafute excuses zingine
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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Swenani wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. hapo sawa, ka ni guesswork. But the trend I can pick out from the top of my guess list is one where the states that have progressed (i.e as dictated by the west) usually have very strong leadership associated with them, at least at the onset. the Romans with their julius, the greeks with their alexander, the germans with their hitler, the immigrates with their george and abraham, the brits with their elizabeth, the french with their napoleon, the egyptians with their pharaoh, the south americans with their wayna, singapore with their lee, kenya with their kenyatta ... The downside for a people that fail to sire great leaders is a lack of development (again as defined by hollywood). now tying all this to the thread, kenya and singapore - one had a strong leader during its rapid development phase and the other, well ... a few jurors are still holding back the verdict. From my view, I don't think the collective abilities of the singapore guys as compared to kenya explains the difference - I think for them it comes down to leadership as compared to kenya. What is leadership in your view? Kwangu, leadership is the ability to make people do what they don't want or would not have done on their own, irrespective of the method(s) used to achieve the same.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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nakujua wrote:Swenani wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. hapo sawa, ka ni guesswork. But the trend I can pick out from the top of my guess list is one where the states that have progressed (i.e as dictated by the west) usually have very strong leadership associated with them, at least at the onset. the Romans with their julius, the greeks with their alexander, the germans with their hitler, the immigrates with their george and abraham, the brits with their elizabeth, the french with their napoleon, the egyptians with their pharaoh, the south americans with their wayna, singapore with their lee, kenya with their kenyatta ... The downside for a people that fail to sire great leaders is a lack of development (again as defined by hollywood). now tying all this to the thread, kenya and singapore - one had a strong leader during its rapid development phase and the other, well ... a few jurors are still holding back the verdict. From my view, I don't think the collective abilities of the singapore guys as compared to kenya explains the difference - I think for them it comes down to leadership as compared to kenya. What is leadership in your view? Kwangu, leadership is the ability to make people do what they don't want or would not have done on their own, irrespective of the method(s) used to achieve the same. Then we have had very good leadership in kenya. 1.We have been forced to accept corruption,tribalism and impunity yet we do not want them 2.We have been forced to have bad leaders yet we want good leaders. If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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timbosho wrote:tycho wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:timbosho wrote:nakujua wrote:masukuma wrote:nakujua wrote:Hapo sawa timbosho, ndivyo nilikubaliana na torio , sisi wamiliki wa ngozi nyeusi huzaliwa na kiwango kikubwa sana cha ujinga, na ukosefu wa akili. you people never fail to surprise me. So... is IQ a factor of skin color? presence of melanin or lack there of? is melanin abundance a causal factor or a correlational factor? Lazy brains tend to draw up conclusions like this! is IQ a factor of birth, diet, environment? Does the weight a mother pick up during her pregnancy affect the IQ of the child she is bearing? Does talking to your child while in the womb and after they are born (way before they can give your any kind of feedback) affect the IQ of the child? What about having elder siblings? Are there other factors? are they causal or correlational? What are the causal not correlational factors that actually make IQ tests differ among groups of people?Don't be a lazy thinker!! In my well considered opinion it's all down to 2 things... CULTURE and DIET amongst other factors! even such things as height are to a large extent having a dietary correlation. Has anyone looked up the Flynn effect? by the way... how come the Japanese or the chineses (that are supposed to have higher IQs) don't go around reminding everyone that they are in the front of the bell curve and yet it's the people in the middle that do? Don't consume hate science and look at your kids any differently! your kids are not damned to be low IQed just because their folks had black skins... priss! synthesising the causality of IQ or any other trait of the human race to just 1 or 2 variables is incredibly lazy... FAGA!! DON'T BE A LAZY THINKER! sasa @ma-sukuma, si @ti-mbosho amesema bell curve ni ukweli wa maisha - how is one supposed to discuss with one who believes that the color of your skin is a determinant of ones intelligence, si unakubaliana tu na yeye - sasa utamwambia nini, na tayari anajua yeye na wewe na mimi tulizaliwa na ujinga. Sio timbosho alisema. Ni Uncle Lee alisema, the great Lee Kuan Yew. Personally I'm not quite sure why it is Asians and whites dominating the world economy and politics, not black people. But come to think of it, outside of Egypt, Mali and Ethiopia, what have we contributed to the world in terms of scientific, economic or cultural achievements? The Chinese can point to tea, philosophy, gunpowder, paper money etc. What can we point to? I do not know if its lazy thinking or not, but when you open the book of African achievements in the past and now, it is mostly blank outside Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali. Either what was achieved was lost in time/forgotten, or just was not there to begin with. at least if you care to go back several years back you would have tripped across that ka achievement of turning a monkey into some crude form of a human being, if africa and to a good extent kenya had not done that we would all be jumping from tree to tree, picking ticks from each other. If you also got into the ka time machine and zoomed back into some carefully selected time you will realize that there is that ka achievement of selling its people abroad to work in some plantations, i am told that fed into some good chunk of what the west has now. Ama how are we measuring the achievements ? But seriously why would you measure achievement of a region then remove the achievers from it. My current guesswork is that past collective achievements by a people is an indication of their talents and abilities, which has a bearing on their present circumstances; their ability to set objectives collectively, their ability to overcome obstacles and challenges in their environments in achieving their objectives, the quality and motivations of their leadership, the people's ability to select and follow good leaders, and remove bad leaders from positions of authority when the opportunity to do so arises. That is why I removed the achievers (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali, off the top of my head). As a disclaimer, this is purely guesswork and very unscientific, arrived at after travelling to some of these regions a few times and looking up their history after getting curious, while taking a few beers. What matters more is how an individual changes collective behavior and how regularly this happens in a society. Where were these individuals who can influence collective behaviour in Africa and why were they unable to make their influence count in the days gone by, unlike their counterparts in Asia, Latin America and Europe? Where are they now? @timbosho, do you know Muindi Mbingu? Kinjeketile? Agajo Trudo? Reason is a human characteristic and even those small chieftains were ruled by reason. The important thing is meeting needs according to experience and political structures. One can only wonder how the Ming empire would have related with Africa. But do you know what made Europe overtake the Mings? And how life and globalization changed? There's a time I asked people here to do a small experiment. They were to look at different historical periods from the earliest time recorded to the distant future and trace patterns and turning points on Wikipedia. As for the present; why aren't you able to provide leadership that counts? The answer is because you're alienated from your roots and experience. You want to be an Asian or European.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Best thread ever @timbosho, mkeid and Torio. Keep the brain racking. @Tycho please keep contributing with simple english. @Masukuma, you are lost, calm down and try and read the thread from page 1. Question. What is Africas/kenyas biggest problem? The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.Once the brits left us 50 years ago we got a piece of land called kenya. This could as well have been kenganda had the brits decided to have a single administration in east africa. Infact is there a subsaharan country that is cohesive and proud of their country. The Asians may have been conquered by the European in the 17th century to date. But records show they have lived in organised societies for years. It was therefore easy for them to pick up from where the colonialists left. What is that? "Organization of a people"? Did you fall from a tree? You are clearly displaying your ignorance We are trying to understand why we are what we are as an African people. I didn't fall from a tree. From my history in primary school, the notable kingdoms in ssa were Shaka of the zulu, mzilikazi of the ndebele whose recorded achievement were resisting the colonialists. The Buganda kings who cooperated etc. There are also the west African kingdoms of songai and mali but these ones had very strong islamic influences. The point is if you leave out the islamic civilisations in west africa, there is no evidence that these kingdoms were organised into states. What I mean is where is the Inca type civilisation in SSA. In my community we had local community unit called mbari, then the clans, the agesets from which political leadership was drawn, Groups of boys were initiated each year and ultimately grouped into generation sets that traditionally ruled for 20 to 30 years. Political authority traditionally was vested in a council of elders representing a particular age class during its occupancy of the ruling grade. From which village did you stem from? Ps mbaris still exist to this day "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Obi, what do you mean by 'State'?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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Swenani wrote:nakujua wrote:Swenani wrote:
What is leadership in your view?
Kwangu, leadership is the ability to make people do what they don't want or would not have done on their own, irrespective of the method(s) used to achieve the same. Then we have had very good leadership in kenya. 1.We have been forced to accept corruption,tribalism and impunity yet we do not want them 2.We have been forced to have bad leaders yet we want good leaders. I don't think we have been forced to do the above, its our collective will to participate in the same. leadership does not force you to bribe the cop who stops you for overlapping, leadership does not force you to tick a ballot paper behind that ka booth, leadership does not force you to abuse, or employ that house girl based on tribe.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Best thread ever @timbosho, mkeid and Torio. Keep the brain racking. @Tycho please keep contributing with simple english. @Masukuma, you are lost, calm down and try and read the thread from page 1. Question. What is Africas/kenyas biggest problem? The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.Once the brits left us 50 years ago we got a piece of land called kenya. This could as well have been kenganda had the brits decided to have a single administration in east africa. Infact is there a subsaharan country that is cohesive and proud of their country. The Asians may have been conquered by the European in the 17th century to date. But records show they have lived in organised societies for years. It was therefore easy for them to pick up from where the colonialists left. What is that? "Organization of a people"? Did you fall from a tree? You are clearly displaying your ignorance We are trying to understand why we are what we are as an African people. I didn't fall from a tree. From my history in primary school, the notable kingdoms in ssa were Shaka of the zulu, mzilikazi of the ndebele whose recorded achievement were resisting the colonialists. The Buganda kings who cooperated etc. There are also the west African kingdoms of songai and mali but these ones had very strong islamic influences. The point is if you leave out the islamic civilisations in west africa, there is no evidence that these kingdoms were organised into states. What I mean is where is the Inca type civilisation in SSA. In my community we had local community unit called mbari, then the clans, the agesets from which political leadership was drawn, Groups of boys were initiated each year and ultimately grouped into generation sets that traditionally ruled for 20 to 30 years. Political authority traditionally was vested in a council of elders representing a particular age class during its occupancy of the ruling grade. From which village did you stem from? Ps mbaris still exist to this day @Muchr, whatever you are describing here did not transcend beyond the village/clan system for the Kikuyu's. Which is precisely my point. When you compare this with other world civilizations of past periods, they pale in comparison, both in scale and complexity. PS. I am sure Mbari does not universally exist among kiuks today. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:murchr wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Best thread ever @timbosho, mkeid and Torio. Keep the brain racking. @Tycho please keep contributing with simple english. @Masukuma, you are lost, calm down and try and read the thread from page 1. Question. What is Africas/kenyas biggest problem? The more I think and read the thoughts here. The more I am convinced its our lack of knowledge of state building. There is no evidence of organisation of a people beyond the village level in subsaharan africa before colonisation. May be thats what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years.Once the brits left us 50 years ago we got a piece of land called kenya. This could as well have been kenganda had the brits decided to have a single administration in east africa. Infact is there a subsaharan country that is cohesive and proud of their country. The Asians may have been conquered by the European in the 17th century to date. But records show they have lived in organised societies for years. It was therefore easy for them to pick up from where the colonialists left. What is that? "Organization of a people"? Did you fall from a tree? You are clearly displaying your ignorance We are trying to understand why we are what we are as an African people. I didn't fall from a tree. From my history in primary school, the notable kingdoms in ssa were Shaka of the zulu, mzilikazi of the ndebele whose recorded achievement were resisting the colonialists. The Buganda kings who cooperated etc. There are also the west African kingdoms of songai and mali but these ones had very strong islamic influences. The point is if you leave out the islamic civilisations in west africa, there is no evidence that these kingdoms were organised into states. What I mean is where is the Inca type civilisation in SSA. In my community we had local community unit called mbari, then the clans, the agesets from which political leadership was drawn, Groups of boys were initiated each year and ultimately grouped into generation sets that traditionally ruled for 20 to 30 years. Political authority traditionally was vested in a council of elders representing a particular age class during its occupancy of the ruling grade. From which village did you stem from? Ps mbaris still exist to this day @Muchr, whatever you are describing here did not transcend beyond the village/clan system for the Kikuyu's. Which is precisely my point. When you compare this with other world civilizations of past periods, they pale in comparison, both in scale and complexity. PS. I am sure Mbari does not universally exist among kiuks today. Seems dont know what a clan is. May be you should start by familiarizing yourself with that first. Family - mbari- clan- sub tribes - tribe. The tribes formed clusters that could be regarded as Kingdoms. Just that in our tribe government Kings did not exist rather council of elders. Families lived in villages. The next village is/was called uturi several of these formed what the white man would call districts. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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