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Nelson and Julius: who was greater?
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as mandela? Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people. I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live. I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, Man is a political animal, and being so if one harbors ambition to understand himself and live well then he must be a political scientist.
I like your definition of leadership. At least it's so ancient. It reminds us of how humans evolve politically.
In my opinion the challenge of our age is to script a new social and political life that will help us adapt to a new financial and economic order, intensified cross cultural exchange and interaction, climate change, and sophisticated artificial intelligence. Tycho the text in red is important. It represents a point of view that I largely share. My exhortation to you is that you should seriously consider answering this call. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people.
I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live.
I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta.
The British govt and settlers wanted Gichuru/Oginga to lead Kenya to independence after decades. That should not be a measure Everywhere you go everybody thinks Mandela is the greatest African ever. That doesn't mean they're right
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as Mandela? Good point. Achieving greatness is like running a Marathon. A lot of things have to fall in line on the critical day. Some of them include: media attention of the right kind, availability of suitable villains to demonize, a sense of guilt in the offending class etc. A stint in jail or detention (or even an early death, preferably tragic) does not seem to do any harm either. Now Nyerere ascended to greatness despite the lack of many of these factors. And you still think his greatness is less great? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as mandela? Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people. I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live. I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta. The year after Mandela became President, I happened to be in a meeting in Uganda that included White South Africans. I remember one man explaining to me, almost in tears, the fear his tribe had of what Mandela would do to them in revenge for what they had done to him. For him Mandelas single greatest act of greatness was he did NOT do. I share that view. Nyerere was a moral and intellectual giant. How many people do you know who have: led a nation out of colonialism, developed a political/economic/moral philosophy, imposed it on an entire people, remained true to their moral principles, managed to resist the enticements of power and translated Shakeshphere in their spare time? Even Gandhi did not do that much. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised. oops you got me. I am banishing myself to a corner right now to think in silence on what I have done.  "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,579
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tycho wrote:
@Much know, it's true that 'Irrimu(ghost)' has been highly problematic and especially in our country.
However, being a linguistic expression, it doesn't express something that existed but is metaphor of a desire for a certain political experience. It's on that account that I think 'Real' is too strong a word.
As you've mentioned, the range of political organization across Africa was wide, and even inter and cross cultural order was managed different from the global and international order that came with the colonialists. That context itself gave way to plenty of distortion and exaggeration. For example even now ideas like 'willing buyer, willing seller' are sources of contention with the state apparently championing for it despite resistance from some quarters.
We need to be aware of these facts indeed if we are to create a political "fakeness" that's optimally adaptive.
Tycho, there is no future, past or present participle or "African Socialism". Question) Please point to an African Country that practice/s African socialism a) In the past b) In the present c) In the future Fake Kabisa. Fake is NOT too strong a word. Just because our ancestors spoke of "Irrimu" and "Irrimuland" does not mean our leaders were lead by "Irrimu" as mzungu claimed, and as they in turn spoke of "African Socialism"/Irrimuland, let us not talk of irrimu in a place called "serious talk"  Ras Kienyeji Man
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as Mandela? Good point. Achieving greatness is like running a Marathon. A lot of things have to fall in line on the critical day. Some of them include: media attention of the right kind, availability of suitable villains to demonize, a sense of guilt in the offending class etc. A stint in jail or detention (or even an early death, preferably tragic) does not seem to do any harm either. Now Nyerere ascended to greatness despite the lack of many of these factors. And you still think his greatness is less great? I think his greatness is greater He lived in the days of the African Big Men. He could have opted to be like the rest of them he had a had a harder time for a guy who wanted to be good as temptation was more
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised. oops you got me. I am banishing myself to a corner right now to think in silence on what I have done. I am just being a kill joy. I tried to kill this thing early but it seems its on an unstoppable roll. You are forgiven. Go on. Duty calls.
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