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Nelson and Julius: who was greater?
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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"...Mr. Mandela only became Nelson Mandela during his years in prison. In other words, it was the solitude, degradation, devastation and inhumanity of that time in confinement that made him who he became." Robin Sharma seems to imply that real greatness is built from overcoming adversity. Clearly most people whom we term great have become so by overcoming great suffering or sacrificing their comfort for others who suffered. I would call this, greatness derived from an external locus. Essentially an ordinary person (Mandela) rises to greatness as a result of overcoming the huge challenges that are thrust upon him/her. Granted this is simplifying things quite a bit, but bear with me. The story of Nyerere, on the other hand, proves there is another category of greatness. Greatness that is internally driven. A fairly ordinary man (a teacher in this case) rises to greatness through an internal vision that he not only believes in, but that he seeks to impose on his people and the region. Despite the lack of a major external stimulus (like jail or detention) Nyerere not only maintains this internal drive over many years but, with time, creates such a powerful moral imperative that others can only bow in respect, even when they disagree with him. OK you could argue that this was partly a similar trajectory to what Hitler followed, but that is besides the point. Back to Sharma, he would seem to imply that the Mandela type of greatness (rising from hard times and events) is preferable (and greater) than the Nyerere type. Here I beg to disagree. From my experience, it is way harder to maintain a focused vision and drive when you have no external signposts to guide you. Adversity may make for greatness but the lack of adversity creates a major barrier to the achievement of the same. Nyerere had to overcome and believe in himself first before he could address the challenges of Tanzania and Africa. Mandela only had to defeat the adversities of jail and he was a hero. Moral: If you find yourself facing adversity, give thanks. You are set for greatness if you can only overcome. On the other hand, if you were born with the proverbial silver spoon...pole kwako. What say you? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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My last on this (promise). I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains. There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi, I've hesitated to give reasons for my support and choice of Mwalimu Nyerere over Mandela because I've been aware of my emotional affinity to Mwalimu since I took great interest some years ago, in African socialism and spent lots of time reading and thinking about it, while for Mandela, I found a book like 'A long walk. . .' quite unengaging. That is, my thoughts on Mandela haven't been really focused. Luckily I have a book on the history of the ANC that's helped me focus my thought.
Besides, I found that I needed to understand what leadership means, and how to judge leadership before committing myself to talk of 'great leadership'. So in a way, my nomination of Nyerere was pretty hasty.
To me 'leadership' is about understanding and intuiting the adaptive challenges of a people, performing the task of ideation and behavior change and modelling, and finally establishing experiential changes that are favorable and sustainable, and that can be used for future challenges. Great leadership then, is a matter of challenge magnitude and quality.
Mandela's challenge, was that of leading his people into a post apartheid era of interracial and harmonious nationhood. Nyerere's challenge on the other hand was of leading the black African in creating a statehood from scratch, that would be true to his culture and identity while also working harmoniously with the international state system.
Nyerere's challenge is still relevant to the greater part of the continent, indeed even in South Africa itself. Nyerere boldly articulated and implemented an idea that is still relevant to our time. Independence and end of apartheid received global support, but self rule and adaptation are tasks that others can only watch us perform. As such, Nyerere's task was greater and though his performance has its faults this generation and others to come will find a useful model.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, I've hesitated to give reasons for my support and choice of Mwalimu Nyerere over Mandela because I've been aware of my emotional affinity to Mwalimu since I took great interest some years ago, in African socialism and spent lots of time reading and thinking about it, while for Mandela, I found a book like 'A long walk. . .' quite unengaging. That is, my thoughts on Mandela haven't been really focused. Luckily I have a book on the history of the ANC that's helped me focus my thought.
Besides, I found that I needed to understand what leadership means, and how to judge leadership before committing myself to talk of 'great leadership'. So in a way, my nomination of Nyerere was pretty hasty.
To me 'leadership' is about understanding and intuiting the adaptive challenges of a people, performing the task of ideation and behavior change and modelling, and finally establishing experiential changes that are favorable and sustainable, and that can be used for future challenges. Great leadership then, is a matter of challenge magnitude and quality.
Mandela's challenge, was that of leading his people into a post apartheid era of interracial and harmonious nationhood. Nyerere's challenge on the other hand was of leading the black African in creating a statehood from scratch, that would be true to his culture and identity while also working harmoniously with the international state system.
Nyerere's challenge is still relevant to the greater part of the continent, indeed even in South Africa itself. Nyerere boldly articulated and implemented an idea that is still relevant to our time. Independence and end of apartheid received global support, but self rule and adaptation are tasks that others can only watch us perform. As such, Nyerere's task was greater and though his performance has its faults this generation and others to come will find a useful model.
Tycho. Wow! This makes a lot of sense and a pretty strong case for Nyerere too. Are you in political science? But, you know what, in the bigger scheme of things it odes not really matter who is greater. Africa today has a poverty of heros and this has been doing serious harm to the growth aspirations of our young. We need as many heros as we can get. Otherwise basing our generational aspirations on the worship of gangster rapers and crooked politicians as role models will not take us very far. As for leadership, while I fully subscribe to your definition above, I have another take (of course). Many years ago I remember reading a book (I forget the title) that every society calls from among itself the kind of leader they need to overcome a particular challenge. Thus there will never be another Mandela, Nyerere, Lumumba, Sankara etc, largely because the challenges they were called upon to help us through are gone or radically changed. Based on this then I would define leadership simply as the capacity to step forward and respond positively to the call of an age. What is the most pressing call of our age today? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/4/2007 Posts: 1,162
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Between Moi and Uhuru, who will be judged greater?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,579
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tycho wrote:in African socialism and spent lots of time reading and thinking about it, while for Mandela
The coining of the FAKE term "African Socialism" the misunderstanding of language and political dispositions and the pursuant effort by African leaders including Jaramogi Odinga, Kwame Nkurumah, Nyerere, Obote to re-institute this non-existent "African Socialism" has been one of the biggest problems to bedevil Africa, i dare say the single most obstacle to African development, because it unknowingly lured them to communism/socialist tendencies, a simple failure in understanding English. There was nothing like African Socialism but there existed highly "socially integrated" African communities, note the difference, because such a small difference in understanding has led to several problems for Africa today. The communities swing from non-democratic/hereditary chiefdom's, kingdoms e.t.c, to democratic councils in other cases. My community for example were socially integrated (by choice), but CAPITALISTIC, and DEMOCRATIC with overwhelming respect for private property and individual freedom having escaped several times from slavery, their philosophy directed them to these ideas of freedom which rule the world today. The fact that they harvested and tilled land together does not mean that they did not separate each Murimis harvest/planting, there was no communal ironsmith, but barter trade with the "Murimi" (planter) and "Muturi" (ironsmith) saw him earn his keep, you chose where to take your apprenticeship at an early age, when the young were circumcised the saying "if you can't slaughter a goat you will slaughter a rat" pointed to individual capabilities of the parents, talk of the Kiamas (occupational groups) of hunters (athis) and Gitongas (rich folk) and their leaders, talk of the entertainers (kiama ki nkoma/ group of the nutcases) and the competitive democtratic appointment of the best from childhood to old age (mwongera of Moi age) into these groups. Yes the African system needs to be rebuilt, but not through uninformed/fake conceptions of "African Socialism". Talking of African socialism is calling Africans politically stupid in a certain sense. Ras Kienyeji Man
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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majimaji wrote:
Between Moi and Uhuru, who will be judged greater?
Kibaki If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 1/3/2015 Posts: 86 Location: Bomet
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Swenani wrote:majimaji wrote:
Between Moi and Uhuru, who will be judged greater?
Kibaki Kibaki will be remembered as a weak leader who failed his country during periods of crisis. Post election violence and anglo leasing is his legacy.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Dear Wazuans,
Thank you very much for your comments. I have learned a lot from this. I especially want to comment on @Lolest's take that sometimes people are a beneficiary/victim of the environment that surrounds them. Thus Nyerere could not do but shine when his neighbors were dictator Amin and autocrat old Jomo. I had not thought about this. But this still misses something, I think. See next post for my final spin on this.
As for those who insist that Sankara was a greater man than either Julias or Nelson, I disagree. Sankara, like Lumumba, and Jesus before them, was a beneficiary of conflated time. Simply, he did not live long enough to make the mistakes that would have revealed him as human.
Sankara also fell in the typification of the romantic revolutionary/hero worship, largely driven by women and impressionable young men, a la Che Guevara, Hugo Chavez et al. Rolihlahla had more women issues than many other African leaders. He was a tough he-goat
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:As for those who insist that Sankara was a greater man than either Julias or Nelson, I disagree. Sankara, like Lumumba, and Jesus before them, was a beneficiary of conflated time. Simply, he did not live long enough to make the mistakes that would have revealed him as human. Maybe Mandela falls under the same time context. At the helm for 5 years only during transition.
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