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Nelson and Julius: who was greater?
Lolest!
#21 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:07:18 PM
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Quote:
I think it's a fallacy to call Mandela and Nyerere great leaders. Mandela was weak as South African president and Nyerere had greater achievements as a scholar than as president.

what informs your conclusion of Mandela's weakness??

Nyerere was great. He even retired voluntarily when that was unheard of
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Lolest!
#22 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:29:57 PM
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In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in

Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to

Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin
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kalenjinherdsboy
#23 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:44:47 PM
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Joined: 1/3/2015
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Location: Bomet
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
I think it's a fallacy to call Mandela and Nyerere great leaders. Mandela was weak as South African president and Nyerere had greater achievements as a scholar than as president.

what informs your conclusion of Mandela's weakness??

Nyerere was great. He even retired voluntarily when that was unheard of


The policies of Mandela's government directly hurt the most vulnerable. South Africa became a world leader in HIV infections and crime under his watch.

If we are to talk of great African leaders then Lumumba, Nkrumah, Nasser and Sankara were superior statesmen to the two.
innairobi
#24 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:52:27 PM
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Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
Both were good, well-intentioned men. Not devoid of serious mistakes though.

- Nyerere failed on the economic front. And about the claims of Tanzania being a stable society due to ujamaa, I disagree. Its been a one party country for the last 50+ years. Tanzania's unity is untested just like Kenya was before the beginning of Kanu's collapse. The day the country will overcome socio-econ-political disagreements that threaten to split the country almost in half is the day I'll be convinced. Tanzania is just like Rwanda - a procrastinated problem. Members of opposition are routinely beaten and detained. Its not as rosy as many think and could explode in future as CCM's clout reduces.

- Mandela failed to address the enormous land dispossession of his people. To this day, 70% of South African land is still in the hands of White South Africans despite Whites comprising less than 10% of the population. And this is not likely to be corrected anytime soon. To make matters worse, 90% of key companies are white-owned. And South Africa being a relatively mature market means there is little opportunity for small black-owned companies to compete. BEE wont do much. That's why I predict a major socio-politial implosion in the not too distant future. And Mandela will have to shoulder a huge part of the responsibility for that. In fact, 30 years from now, Zimbabwe will be by far the more stable country. And I wouldn't take the Nobel Prize too seriously as a barometer of achievement especially outside the sciences. The peace prize is a joke most of the time.
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AlphDoti
#25 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:56:16 PM
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Joined: 6/20/2008
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Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
Ill answer your original query by saying Mandela was a greater man for his sacrifice and for uniting his country after apartheid.

It was a delicate balance that SA had post 1990

what to do with blacks

what to do with whites

what to do with coloureds

He handled the unity aspect well. Included his opponents in govt(FW de Klerk was Deputy Pres, Mangosuthu Buthelezi was acting president for some time)

But world media overhyped him to a point of near worship

I still think Nyerere was greater

I agree with @lonest. What made the 180° turn around attitude towards Mandela? Didn't they call him a criminal before they jailed him. How did he all of a sudden become a hero? Because he told them let's forget all what you did to blacks?

The media can change black into white, day into night, hero into villain, villain into hero Shame on you Pray
Lolest!
#26 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:57:36 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
herdsboy, Mandela was at the helm for 5yrs only. Was his govt opening brothels or giving thugs guns? Doesn't sound fair to blame him for HIV rates

The question was about the better between the 2(comparative) not the best in Africa(superlative).

The best in Africa should be Sankara. The west would rather we forget him

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
kalenjinherdsboy
#27 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:16:42 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 1/3/2015
Posts: 86
Location: Bomet
Lolest! wrote:
herdsboy, Mandela was at the helm for 5yrs only. Was his govt opening brothels or giving thugs guns? Doesn't sound fair to blame him for HIV rates

The question was about the better between the 2(comparative) not the best in Africa(superlative).

The best in Africa should be Sankara. The west would rather we forget him



The man himself admitted that his government failed to address the explosion in HIV infections. With the resources and the global goodwill, Mandela's government failed its people.

kalenjinherdsboy
#28 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:28:28 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 1/3/2015
Posts: 86
Location: Bomet
innairobi wrote:
Both were good, well-intentioned men. Not devoid of serious mistakes though.

- Nyerere failed on the economic front. And about the claims of Tanzania being a stable society due to ujamaa, I disagree. Its been a one party country for the last 50+ years. Tanzania's unity is untested just like Kenya was before the beginning of Kanu's collapse. The day the country will overcome socio-econ-political disagreements that threaten to split the country almost in half is the day I'll be convinced. Tanzania is just like Rwanda - a procrastinated problem. Members of opposition are routinely beaten and detained. Its not as rosy as many think and could explode in future as CCM's clout reduces.

- Mandela failed to address the enormous land dispossession of his people. To this day, 70% of South African land is still in the hands of White South Africans despite Whites comprising less than 10% of the population. And this is not likely to be corrected anytime soon. To make matters worse, 90% of key companies are white-owned. And South Africa being a relatively mature market means there is little opportunity for small black-owned companies to compete. BEE wont do much. That's why I predict a major socio-politial implosion in the not too distant future. And Mandela will have to shoulder a huge part of the responsibility for that. In fact, 30 years from now, Zimbabwe will be by far the more stable country. And I wouldn't take the Nobel Prize too seriously as a barometer of achievement especially outside the sciences. The peace prize is a joke most of the time.


Good points!!
innairobi
#29 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 8:12:36 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
This was the situation as at 2012/3. Bear in mind this was an infographic by some white South Africans trying to refute claims that white land ownership was 87%.

All my friends are heathens, take it slow. Wait for them to ask you who you know. Please don't make any sudden moves.
Wakanyugi
#30 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2015 12:31:50 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
Dear Wazuans,

Thank you very much for your comments. I have learned a lot from this. I especially want to comment on @Lolest's take that sometimes people are a beneficiary/victim of the environment that surrounds them. Thus Nyerere could not do but shine when his neighbors were dictator Amin and autocrat old Jomo. I had not thought about this. But this still misses something, I think. See next post for my final spin on this.

As for those who insist that Sankara was a greater man than either Julias or Nelson, I disagree. Sankara, like Lumumba, and Jesus before them, was a beneficiary of conflated time. Simply, he did not live long enough to make the mistakes that would have revealed him as human.

Sankara also fell in the typification of the romantic revolutionary/hero worship, largely driven by women and impressionable young men, a la Che Guevara, Hugo Chavez et al.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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