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Nelson and Julius: who was greater?
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Wazuans I was reading an online piece about Mandela and the following line stuck in my mind: "...Mr. Mandela only became Nelson Mandela during his years in prison. In other words, it was the solitude, degradation, devastation and inhumanity of that time in confinement that made him who he became." [Robin Sharma] In other words Mandela was shaped by events to become the great man he was. On the other hand Julius Nyerere rose to greatness without the benefit of adversity to shape his character. Both had leadership thrust upon them (to misquote Churchill) but they arrived at greatness from two very different paths. In that case who was greater? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:My vote goes to Nyerere. And it's not true that Nyerere faced no adversity. He did.
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Rank: User Joined: 1/20/2014 Posts: 3,528
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Nyerere had the freedom, opportunity and choice of joining the thugs of this world in looting his Country. He chose to be humane and humble. Mandela was humbled in his humiliation by the apartheid guys and hardened in the process!!! Nyerere it is!!! Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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There is something that made Mandela go to jail, otherwise kila mtu angetupwa jelani na awe Mandela, why would we want to compare the two? ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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McReggae wrote:There is something that made Mandela go to jail, otherwise kila mtu angetupwa jelani na awe Mandela, why would we want to compare the two? I think I am also missing the point of comparison. How would anyone compare Mandela to Nyerere. What again did Nyarere do? "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: User Joined: 1/20/2014 Posts: 3,528
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At least Nyerere didnot steal like all his peers.... Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/9/2012 Posts: 576
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To quote Mugabe when he was interviewed by CNNs Christine Ammanpour 'Mandela is Mandela and Mugabe is Mugabe' Likewise Mwalimu is Mwalimu and Madiba is Madiba can one say who is greatest btn Swenani and Alma? Africa belongs to Africans.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Othelo wrote:At least Nyerere didnot steal like all his peers.... This is a very low bar. Not stealing does not make a great leader. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:McReggae wrote:There is something that made Mandela go to jail, otherwise kila mtu angetupwa jelani na awe Mandela, why would we want to compare the two? I think I am also missing the point of comparison. How would anyone compare Mandela to Nyerere. What again did Nyarere do? And you think he was the first to be jailed for 27 years with hard labor? We have guys jailed for life and they dont talk about it. The @Mandela thing, though humbling in some aspects, is OVERRATED! @Mwalimu Nyerere was HUMBLE throughout his life while @Mandela was a lifist and fishmonger who was labelled a terrorist and was just developed through [painful apartheid (in)justice!  Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Nyerere Reading through Mandela's it's a long walk to freedom autobio, you realise that the SA struggle was personalised around Mandela by his close buddy and ANC sec gen Oliver Tambo Nyerere helped many African liberation groups, built a cohesive state and brought down East Africa's biggest dictator Amin
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Wazuans
I was reading an online piece about Mandela and the following line stuck in my mind:
"...Mr. Mandela only became Nelson Mandela during his years in prison. In other words, it was the solitude, degradation, devastation and inhumanity of that time in confinement that made him who he became." [Robin Sharma]
In other words Mandela was shaped by events to become the great man he was.
On the other hand Julius Nyerere rose to greatness without the benefit of adversity to shape his character.
Both had leadership thrust upon them (to misquote Churchill) but they arrived at greatness from two very different paths.
In that case who was greater?
Wakanyugi, Is this a question about personalities? Of what use is personalities?
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 1/3/2015 Posts: 86 Location: Bomet
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One man left behind a country with the highest rates of HIV and crime in the world and the other left a broken economy and extensive corruption.
Mandela and Nyerere did great things but calling them great leaders is blind hero worship.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/11/2007 Posts: 694
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When the record of any human life is set down, there are three pairs of eyes who see it in a different light. There is the life as I see it, as others see it, and as God sees it. Bishop sheen Foulton
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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kalenjinherdsboy wrote:One man left behind a country with the highest rates of HIV and crime in the world and the other left a broken economy and extensive corruption.
Mandela and Nyerere did great things but calling them great leaders is blind hero worship.  Comments from a real herdsboy!!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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People, please calm down! It is just a debate (like the one going on in parliament right now). The question is not about personalities but about human aspiration to and achievement of greatness. I start from a premise that Julius Nyerere and Nelson Mandela are two of the greatest leaders our continent has produced. One was hammered at the anvil of adversity, 27 years in jail is not kidogo. In the process he became a moral giant, largely measured by what he did NOT do on assuming power. Won the Nobel prize along the way. The other one seized an opportunity and applied clearly superior intellect and morality to shape a nation, influence a region and set a bar so high that no Tanzanian leader since then has been able to approach it. Major achievements for both men, you must admit. If you were to pick one for a 'greatness prize,' which would it be? Why? Please indulge me. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:People, please calm down! It is just a debate (like the one going on in parliament right now).
The question is not about personalities but about human aspiration to and achievement of greatness.
I start from a premise that Julius Nyerere and Nelson Mandela are two of the greatest leaders our continent has produced.
One was hammered at the anvil of adversity, 27 years in jail is not kidogo. In the process he became a moral giant, largely measured by what he did NOT do on assuming power. Won the Nobel prize along the way.
The other one seized an opportunity and applied clearly superior intellect and morality to shape a nation, influence a region and set a bar so high that no Tanzanian leader since then has been able to approach it.
Major achievements for both men, you must admit.
If you were to pick one for a 'greatness prize,' which would it be?
Why?
Please indulge me. So its about their personality. What other parameters can be considered? Are their marriages also to be considered? Why would not anyone aspire to achieve what they achieved in their marriages, if that aspect of their lives could be considered? There is no one to pick for any prize. They are all human. Fallible.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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kalenjinherdsboy wrote:One man left behind a country with the highest rates of HIV and crime in the world and the other left a broken economy and extensive corruption.
Mandela and Nyerere did great things but calling them great leaders is blind hero worship. Agree. Not with attributing the state of their nations to them but with the other point.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 1/3/2015 Posts: 86 Location: Bomet
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Wakanyugi wrote:People, please calm down! It is just a debate (like the one going on in parliament right now).
The question is not about personalities but about human aspiration to and achievement of greatness.
I start from a premise that Julius Nyerere and Nelson Mandela are two of the greatest leaders our continent has produced.
One was hammered at the anvil of adversity, 27 years in jail is not kidogo. In the process he became a moral giant, largely measured by what he did NOT do on assuming power. Won the Nobel prize along the way.
The other one seized an opportunity and applied clearly superior intellect and morality to shape a nation, influence a region and set a bar so high that no Tanzanian leader since then has been able to approach it.
Major achievements for both men, you must admit.
If you were to pick one for a 'greatness prize,' which would it be?
Why?
Please indulge me. I think it's a fallacy to call Mandela and Nyerere great leaders. Mandela was weak as South African president and Nyerere had greater achievements as a scholar than as president. Ill answer your original query by saying Mandela was a greater man for his sacrifice and for uniting his country after apartheid.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:Ill answer your original query by saying Mandela was a greater man for his sacrifice and for uniting his country after apartheid. It was a delicate balance that SA had post 1990 what to do with blacks what to do with whites what to do with coloureds He handled the unity aspect well. Included his opponents in govt(FW de Klerk was Deputy Pres, Mangosuthu Buthelezi was acting president for some time) But world media overhyped him to a point of near worship I still think Nyerere was greater
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