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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Who or what, is God?
God, I have found, and seen, is a self organized and emergent idea, and experience, that is; assimilated, acted out, internalized, projected, introjected, and institutionalized, then looped back to the start- self organization and emergence- and down the flow again, for the purpose of creating, interpreting, modifying, and justifying human experience and the politics of human experience. 'Self organized' implies sovereign. Independent. Autonomous. Supreme. Hence not compatible with 'looped back to the start'. Self contradiction. This post belongs to the Contradiction Premises thread, not this one. The thread title is a contradiction of the intent of the thread starter How? You started this thread with the intent to learn but you also find it difficult to imagine that you can learn that there is/can be no God. That's not true. There's lots of space here for 'No God'. Valid space and even valid reality. God can 'die' or even disappear. Learning cannot take place if other possibilities are out-rightly ruled out. That will be like rote memorization. Hardly learning. What possibilities have been ruled out? Isn't challenging/countering same as rejection? tycho wrote:
There are those who believe that God doesn't exist- and I wish to engage them here - leaving me with the challenge of first showing that God, or a God(s) indeed exist(s).
I get your point. It's a commitment to an idea. I can see how it came. 'Theology' is a commitment to the idea and experience that I have defined. But can an experience be denied? Then, my mind isn't neutral. I am thus obliged not to take a challenge as a rejection. I can only learn if am challenged.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:Quote:This process is spontaneous: it is not necessarily directed or controlled by any agent or subsystem inside or outside of the system. That sounds to me as autonomy. 'Entropy' is an intrusion in that you are trying to artificially make it a part of this learning. Like sticking it with glue or sellotape where it is not a natural part. Okay. In this case we differ on focus. In this case my focus is on: Self-organization is a process where some form of overall order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system. Where interacting parts of a whole are involved. Why do you think am diverting from the issue by introducing 'entropy'?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:This process is spontaneous: it is not necessarily directed or controlled by any agent or subsystem inside or outside of the system. That sounds to me as autonomy. 'Entropy' is an intrusion in that you are trying to artificially make it a part of this learning. Like sticking it with glue or sellotape where it is not a natural part. Okay. In this case we differ on focus. In this case my focus is on: Self-organization is a process where some form of overall order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system. Where interacting parts of a whole are involved. Why do you think am diverting from the issue by introducing 'entropy'? Yes, focus, my brother we differ on focus. It's like you have taken a microscope and are using it to see an elephant. Of course you will see the myriad cells and you will exclaim "Components! They are so many! So different!" Or you can, like me, just use your eyes and see one, single, huge, big thing. Then 'entropy' will be irrelevant. An intrusion. An alien. Simple.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:This process is spontaneous: it is not necessarily directed or controlled by any agent or subsystem inside or outside of the system. That sounds to me as autonomy. 'Entropy' is an intrusion in that you are trying to artificially make it a part of this learning. Like sticking it with glue or sellotape where it is not a natural part. Okay. In this case we differ on focus. In this case my focus is on: Self-organization is a process where some form of overall order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system. Where interacting parts of a whole are involved. Why do you think am diverting from the issue by introducing 'entropy'? Yes, focus, my brother we differ on focus. It's like you have taken a microscope and are using it to see an elephant. Of course you will see the myriad cells and you will exclaim "Components! They are so many! So different!" Or you can, like me, just use your eyes and see one, single, huge, big thing. Then 'entropy' will be irrelevant. An intrusion. An alien. Simple. Is/are there something of an elephant that can't be seen without a microscope?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:This process is spontaneous: it is not necessarily directed or controlled by any agent or subsystem inside or outside of the system. That sounds to me as autonomy. 'Entropy' is an intrusion in that you are trying to artificially make it a part of this learning. Like sticking it with glue or sellotape where it is not a natural part. Okay. In this case we differ on focus. In this case my focus is on: Self-organization is a process where some form of overall order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system. Where interacting parts of a whole are involved. Why do you think am diverting from the issue by introducing 'entropy'? Yes, focus, my brother we differ on focus. It's like you have taken a microscope and are using it to see an elephant. Of course you will see the myriad cells and you will exclaim "Components! They are so many! So different!" Or you can, like me, just use your eyes and see one, single, huge, big thing. Then 'entropy' will be irrelevant. An intrusion. An alien. Simple. Is/are there something of an elephant that can't be seen without a microscope? Okay, I see you've already mentioned 'cells', what else can I see using a microscope?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:
Is/are there something of an elephant that can't be seen without a microscope?
Okay, I see you've already mentioned 'cells', what else can I see using a microscope?[/quote] Put away the microscope.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Is/are there something of an elephant that can't be seen without a microscope?
Okay, I see you've already mentioned 'cells', what else can I see using a microscope? Put away the microscope. [/quote] Why should I put the microscope away?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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Liberate your mind from what?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant. What about the elephant do I wish to view?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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symbols wrote:Liberate your mind from what? Fixation with the transcient and contingent.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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tycho wrote:symbols wrote:Liberate your mind from what? Fixation with the transcient and contingent. Why?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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symbols wrote:tycho wrote:symbols wrote:Liberate your mind from what? Fixation with the transcient and contingent. Why? Because then I can optimize my soul and my adaptation.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant. What about the elephant do I wish to view? It's presence in the 'room'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant. What about the elephant do I wish to view? It's presence in the 'room'. What about its presence in the 'room'?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant. What about the elephant do I wish to view? It's presence in the 'room'. What about its presence in the 'room'? That is what we are here to learn. You mentioned it has connections to liberation. To study God.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:
Why should I put the microscope away?
It is blocking your view. What is my view? Or rather, what do I wish to view? The elephant. What about the elephant do I wish to view? It's presence in the 'room'. What about its presence in the 'room'? That is what we are here to learn. You mentioned it has connections to liberation. To study God. So let's start with you, what would you like to learn about the elephant in the room?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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tycho wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:symbols wrote:Liberate your mind from what? Fixation with the transcient and contingent. Why? Because then I can optimize my soul and my adaptation. What do you gain from the fixation?
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