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Thika Road Expansion was a Mistake
timbosho
#221 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:57:29 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 8/23/2013
Posts: 34
The comments have good ideas to solve the traffic menace. Allow me to throw my peni mbili into mix. We have too many vehicles heading into the CBD. However, banning private vehicles will not solve this traffic problem. We all know what happens when it rains and you are using matatus. Think of those watotos who have to wake up at 4/5am and have to travel across Nairobi so that they make it to City Road primary by 7am travelling by matatu, earlier if its the rainy season.
Raising the parking fee (a tax on vehicle usage by any other name) will only increase the amount of money that is stolen by Kidero et al. Speaking of parking fee, it should have been ring fenced such that it can only be used on provision of public transport. Sio kulipa madeni ama salary za watu wa kanjo.
For a start, govt/kanjo (KRA returns,driving license applications, birth certificates, passports, land titles, id card applications) will just have to be forced to eat less parking fee by moving its "services" if we can call them that to the estates.Why should you travel to the CBD to apply for a passport, birth certificate, company registration or check out a land title?
Move even the government owned markets outside the CBD (Marigiti, hio ya samaki hapo Koinange)
Matatu routes will also have to be redesigned so that not all matatus end up in the CBD. Why should you go to the CBD if you are travelling from Pangani to Westlands?
If redesigning routes is too politically hot and there has to be a central hub/terminal, place it well outside the CBD.

Ultimately, government owned (not government managed, hii sirkal iko na wazimu) rail based transport would have to come into play, linking the different sections of the city. Central hub iwe mbali na CBD pia. Rail lines designed in such a way that sio lazima kuingia CBD kama you have no business there. Government ownership will ensure that new areas are served by rail even when they are not commercially viable.
Vehicle usage will then be limited to those who have to deliver viazi, mayai na mali zingine to the CBD and those who cannot bear to part with their vehicles. Personal, non business usage can then be taxed via congestion charges, toll roads etc.
This is how big cities all over the world have solved their traffic problems, at the same time spreading development to wider urban areas.
murchr
#222 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:27:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
^^^^^ We'll if you don't know, there are trains that leave Thika for NRB daily, with stop overs along the route, just like there's a train that leaves Syokimau to NRB but we're too posh to get into those rusty stinky containers running on steam.

2. Its not that there are no plans on paper or some computer somewhere gathering dust on the Metro plan, its just that we as Kenyans are terribly poor at implementation http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...spx?g=posts&t=19356

3. Poor planning is the major problem. Walk around CBD and compare the office space vis a vis the parking, a total joke. We don't do scenario planning and think forward...investor.wazua.co.ke/forum.aspx?g=posts&t=25097&p=3 On this thread, we're happy that we're bringing another 39 floors of concrete to the city, yes great, but that will bring in more cars and even tho the parking problem is taken care of and lets say City council takes away the side parking spots on Monrovia etc, these cars will still flow to Uhuru highway, and University way and eventually to Thika and Msa rd.

4. Satellite cities will be the solution. Not parking or further road expansion. We have to think out of the box called Nrb
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alutacontinua
#223 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:12:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/23/2011
Posts: 304
Very interesting debate here..... if i could also add my 2 cents into it think the solution would be a commuter railway as described in the image.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...R8J06IIAAQkec.jpg:large

Rail 1: Syokimau - JKIA - CBD - Westlands
Rail 2: Kiserian - CBD - Juja
Rail 3: Kiambu - CBD - Rongai South
Rail 4: Kikuyu - CBD - Kitengela

Simply put a "park and ride" system as suggested by a few earlier in the thread....this particular system would solve the issue of mass transportation if run properly. Other factors would be speed, security, efficiency of the schedule and a changed perception of public transport would be the critical keys to success in my opinion.....KPLC would also need to up their game to ensure a constant reliable supply of electricity if the trains used were electric.
You dont have to be great to START but you have to start to be GREAT!!!!!!!!
Impunity
#224 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:58:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
alutacontinua wrote:
Very interesting debate here..... if i could also add my 2 cents into it think the solution would be a commuter railway as described in the image.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...R8J06IIAAQkec.jpg:large

Rail 1: Syokimau - JKIA - CBD - Westlands
Rail 2: Kiserian - CBD - Juja
Rail 3: Kiambu - CBD - Rongai South
Rail 4: Kikuyu - CBD - Kitengela

Simply put a "park and ride" system as suggested by a few earlier in the thread....this particular system would solve the issue of mass transportation if run properly. Other factors would be speed, security, efficiency of the schedule and a changed perception of public transport would be the critical keys to success in my opinion.....KPLC would also need to up their game to ensure a constant reliable supply of electricity if the trains used were electric.


A REAL PIPE DREAM.BEAUTIFUL DREAM WHICH ONE CAN REMEMBER HOURS AFTER WAKING UP.

Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Lolest!
#225 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 4:31:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Impunity wrote:
alutacontinua wrote:
Very interesting debate here..... if i could also add my 2 cents into it think the solution would be a commuter railway as described in the image.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...R8J06IIAAQkec.jpg:large

Rail 1: Syokimau - JKIA - CBD - Westlands
Rail 2: Kiserian - CBD - Juja
Rail 3: Kiambu - CBD - Rongai South
Rail 4: Kikuyu - CBD - Kitengela

Simply put a "park and ride" system as suggested by a few earlier in the thread....this particular system would solve the issue of mass transportation if run properly. Other factors would be speed, security, efficiency of the schedule and a changed perception of public transport would be the critical keys to success in my opinion.....KPLC would also need to up their game to ensure a constant reliable supply of electricity if the trains used were electric.


A REAL PIPE DREAM.BEAUTIFUL DREAM WHICH ONE CAN REMEMBER HOURS AFTER WAKING UP.


hope we get there.

But gava seriously needs to improve rail transport. I looked at some of those wagons za commuters they look so rusty and dirty like kanjo toilets zamani. These middo class and mido class wannabe can never ride such
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
MaichBlack
#226 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 5:11:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,460
Who will kindly teach Kenyans Economics. Even if it is just at a basic level!!!

Private cars are a HUGE deal to the Kenyan economy.

For starters, for every private car you see on the road, the government pocketed a cool 500,000/= the minute it landed in Kenya in taxes!!! For every litre of fuel, the government pockets 30/= - never mind the fuel companies will pay income taxes plus other taxes in addition to this. Spare parts, taxes, same story. Take a walk along Kirinyaga Road, Industrial area and see the percentage of spare parts for matatus/buses and personal cars. Now lets go to the mechanics, car wash guys and associated businesses, garage owners, spare parts shop owners and employees etc. etc.

Now you are telling me we mess all these up because people are TOO LAZY to think???

Basic Economics should be made compulsory starting from lower primary. The reasoning problems exhibited by our so called leaders are the same ones replicated on the "wananchi".

Ban private vehicles...

Ban Miraa Chewing at certain hours...

Ban Drinking at certain hours...

Limit Speed to 50km/h even on highways complete with pedestrian foot bridges...

Lazy, Lazy Kenyans. Lazy solutions!!!

People should start thinking.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Lolest!
#227 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 5:20:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
MaichBlack wrote:
Who will kindly teach Kenyans Economics. Even if it is just at a basic level!!!

Private cars are a HUGE deal to the Kenyan economy.

For starters, for every private car you see on the road, the government pocketed a cool 500,000/= the minute it landed in Kenya in taxes!!! For every litre of fuel, the government pockets 30/= - never mind the fuel companies will pay income taxes plus other taxes in addition to this. Spare parts, taxes, same story. Take a walk along Kirinyaga Road, Industrial area and see the percentage of spare parts for matatus/buses and personal cars. Now lets go to the mechanics, car wash guys and associated businesses, garage owners, spare parts shop owners and employees etc. etc.

Now you are telling me we mess all these up because people are TOO LAZY to think???

Basic Economics should be made compulsory starting from lower primary. The reasoning problems exhibited by our so called leaders are the same ones replicated on the "wananchi".

Ban private vehicles...

Ban Miraa Chewing at certain hours...

Ban Drinking at certain hours...

Limit Speed to 50km/h even on highways complete with pedestrian foot bridges...

Lazy, Lazy Kenyans. Lazy solutions!!!

People should start thinking.

We're waiting for your well researched paper on the economic effects of discouraging private cars or improving rail transport
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
MaichBlack
#228 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 6:27:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,460
Lolest! wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Who will kindly teach Kenyans Economics. Even if it is just at a basic level!!!

Private cars are a HUGE deal to the Kenyan economy.

For starters, for every private car you see on the road, the government pocketed a cool 500,000/= the minute it landed in Kenya in taxes!!! For every litre of fuel, the government pockets 30/= - never mind the fuel companies will pay income taxes plus other taxes in addition to this. Spare parts, taxes, same story. Take a walk along Kirinyaga Road, Industrial area and see the percentage of spare parts for matatus/buses and personal cars. Now lets go to the mechanics, car wash guys and associated businesses, garage owners, spare parts shop owners and employees etc. etc.

Now you are telling me we mess all these up because people are TOO LAZY to think???

Basic Economics should be made compulsory starting from lower primary. The reasoning problems exhibited by our so called leaders are the same ones replicated on the "wananchi".

Ban private vehicles...

Ban Miraa Chewing at certain hours...

Ban Drinking at certain hours...

Limit Speed to 50km/h even on highways complete with pedestrian foot bridges...

Lazy, Lazy Kenyans. Lazy solutions!!!

People should start thinking.

We're waiting for your well researched paper on the economic effects of discouraging private cars or improving rail transport

You expect people who don't understand basic economics and cannot read a simple book to read research papers???
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
MaichBlack
#229 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:18:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,460
And by the way I understand there are cities with extremely high personal vehicle per capita where a family can have as many as three of four cars - with one being used by the house girl/nanny etc to run errands. And this is replicated by a majority of the families.The volume of cars can be crazy. Such cities have no option but to restrict movement especially given that they have efficient and reliable public transport.

Come to Kenya and the number of personal cars is not even at 5% of adult population (let alone the total population) and you cannot come up with a creative solution? Ban, ban, ban!!! Nini hii???
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Speculz
#230 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:26:30 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/6/2011
Posts: 391
Location: Nairobi
MaichBlack wrote:
And by the way I understand there are cities with extremely high personal vehicle per capita where a family can have as many as three of four cars - with one being used by the house girl/nanny etc to run errands. And this is replicated by a majority of the families.The volume of cars can be crazy. Such cities have no option but to restrict movement especially given that they have efficient and reliable public transport.

Come to Kenya and the number of personal cars is not even at 5% of grown up population (let alone the total population) and you cannot come up with a creative solution? Ban, ban, ban!!! Nini hii???



I like your thought process ,should buy you a drink ,people are just afraid to think ,actually to forecast ,banning and raising fees never helps , all we are asking for is constructive ideas ,I cannot fathom leaving home on thika road headed to chaka rd and having to pass via cbd ..it's not my fault ,someone was paid to think ..and they failed .
"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Stephen Wright
murchr
#231 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 8:44:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Large cities such as London charge a "congestion fee" for all commuters passing through the "congestion zone" which is mainly the financial district. Sometimes last year, i tried to get to Citi bank from GPO from 1 O'clock i gave up at 3. Now that all banks are moving their headquarters to Upper Hill, lets wait for the mess that is about to crop up, if it hasn't. Shida tupu!
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Speculz
#232 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 9:59:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/6/2011
Posts: 391
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
Large cities such as London charge a "congestion fee" for all commuters passing through the "congestion zone" which is mainly the financial district. Sometimes last year, i tried to get to Citi bank from GPO from 1 O'clock i gave up at 3. Now that all banks are moving their headquarters to Upper Hill, lets wait for the mess that is about to crop up, if it hasn't. Shida tupu!


Indeed ..as I said people paid to think have failed ,in the case of London and other more developed cities , they do have somewhat of an efficient public service especially the trains ,therefore let those responsible give us concrete solutions .develop those and then charge to congest , I have used 44,45,237,30,23,22,10,58,and number tisa for the longest and well ...when I refuse to move e.g on a 44 so that they weka excess ,naambiwa enda ununue gari yako !!
"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Stephen Wright
Lolest!
#233 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:11:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Sometimes, when someone feels he is so knowledgeable in a field that he he has to amount to insults, one is tempted to let them be.

This is simple debate. We don't have to agree. I wonder who told people here that they are the only learned ones. Even if they were, is it so impossible to impart your knowledge without being obnoxious?? Jamaa, hapo umetuangusha. Even @impunity beats you in that! He at least tries to explain his stuff(railway) for the benefit of others here in wazua.

And who said only economists should be involved in planning? We spend lots of money in our public institutions training Spatial Planners, Civil Engineers, Land Economists etc. Just because one studied Econ shouldn't give them sole rights to determine spatial planning in our towns/cities

Seriously Maich, there were some guys blaming traffic on ma3s only(this happens often). You never opposed them! Why? Because for you, this argument is personal. They want you to use public and forfeit your private means for public. It's not really about the real pros and cons of whichever measure guys have proposed, it's just about your comfort.

Of course govt mustn't ban. It should discourage and while at it work on alternative means. That's what I hold. Blaming ma3s like speculz is doing is leaving the antelope hunt to chase a squirrel!

Be sure to do your UNBIASED paper(which I promise to read). Please factor in lost man hours. The economist in you should know that that is detrimental to the economy like in @murchr's case!

Quote:
Prof. Marion Mutungi, reminded attendants that “Trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt.”

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Lolest!
#234 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:21:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
whiteowl
#235 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 1:37:11 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/16/2014
Posts: 1,420
Location: Bohemian Grove
Speculz wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
And by the way I understand there are cities with extremely high personal vehicle per capita where a family can have as many as three of four cars - with one being used by the house girl/nanny etc to run errands. And this is replicated by a majority of the families.The volume of cars can be crazy. Such cities have no option but to restrict movement especially given that they have efficient and reliable public transport.

Come to Kenya and the number of personal cars is not even at 5% of grown up population (let alone the total population) and you cannot come up with a creative solution? Ban, ban, ban!!! Nini hii???



I like your thought process ,should buy you a drink ,people are just afraid to think ,actually to forecast ,banning and raising fees never helps , all we are asking for is constructive ideas ,I cannot fathom leaving home on thika road headed to chaka rd and having to pass via cbd ..it's not my fault ,someone was paid to think ..and they failed .

Unless we to the level of Japan, banning shouldn't even cross anyone's mind. Most of our bureaucrats deserve a punch on the face.Not that it would help drive any sense into their heads but at least that would give them a feel of our frustrations. Just look at what number Kenya is on this list
MaichBlack
#236 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 9:07:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,460
whiteowl wrote:
Speculz wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
And by the way I understand there are cities with extremely high personal vehicle per capita where a family can have as many as three of four cars - with one being used by the house girl/nanny etc to run errands. And this is replicated by a majority of the families.The volume of cars can be crazy. Such cities have no option but to restrict movement especially given that they have efficient and reliable public transport.

Come to Kenya and the number of personal cars is not even at 5% of grown up population (let alone the total population) and you cannot come up with a creative solution? Ban, ban, ban!!! Nini hii???



I like your thought process ,should buy you a drink ,people are just afraid to think ,actually to forecast ,banning and raising fees never helps , all we are asking for is constructive ideas ,I cannot fathom leaving home on thika road headed to chaka rd and having to pass via cbd ..it's not my fault ,someone was paid to think ..and they failed .

Unless we to the level of Japan, banning shouldn't even cross anyone's mind. Most of our bureaucrats deserve a punch on the face.Not that it would help drive any sense into their heads but at least that would give them a feel of our frustrations. Just look at what number Kenya is on this list

Applause Applause Applause

A country that has a vehicle per capita of A MERE 24 cars per 1000 inhabitants wants to copy paste actions of countries with vehicle per capitas of 500 to 1000+ per 1000 inhabitants??? Some of those countries have not even taken such drastic measures despite the HUGE number of vehicles. Even Zimbabwe has almost FIVE TIMES the vehicle per capita of Kenya. The fact that we even have a traffic problem is a testament of the mediocrity, laziness and lack of planning, thinking etc. on the part of the people involved/in charge.

Let people think!!! And if thinking hurts their brains, replace them with people who can (think)!!!?
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
knight260
#237 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 9:58:26 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2014
Posts: 16
So those who implement the road pricing model in Germany,italy, Malta,Norway,sweden,UK, Dubai, Newyork, Brazil etc are LAZY? Sisi huku ndio tuna akili?

MaichBlack
#238 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 10:15:09 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,460
knight260 wrote:
So those who implement the road pricing model in Germany,italy, Malta,Norway,sweden,UK, Dubai, Newyork, Brazil etc are LAZY? Sisi huku ndio tuna akili?


Wewe Kijana angalia post ya @Whiteowl hapo juu. Those countries have vehicle per capitas of 500 to 1000+ vehicles per a thousand people. Kenya has a vehicle per capita of A MERE 24 vehicles per 1000 people!!!

Ujinga ni MP from North Eastern kuambia watu wa constituency yake wa diet kwasababu aliona watu Germany, Italy, Sweden, Newyork etc. waki diet!!!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
knight260
#239 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 2:25:18 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2014
Posts: 16
Stop being emotional. You cant compare the two. Simply because, their road networks were expanded as their economies grew, but still they insisted on public transportation. We will be acting irrational, if we go same route, only to realize that its impossible to expand road networks to infinity. Nobody says ban private cars, simply regulate during rush hours, sawa kijana?
murchr
#240 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 2:30:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
MaichBlack wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
Speculz wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
And by the way I understand there are cities with extremely high personal vehicle per capita where a family can have as many as three of four cars - with one being used by the house girl/nanny etc to run errands. And this is replicated by a majority of the families.The volume of cars can be crazy. Such cities have no option but to restrict movement especially given that they have efficient and reliable public transport.

Come to Kenya and the number of personal cars is not even at 5% of grown up population (let alone the total population) and you cannot come up with a creative solution? Ban, ban, ban!!! Nini hii???



I like your thought process ,should buy you a drink ,people are just afraid to think ,actually to forecast ,banning and raising fees never helps , all we are asking for is constructive ideas ,I cannot fathom leaving home on thika road headed to chaka rd and having to pass via cbd ..it's not my fault ,someone was paid to think ..and they failed .

Unless we to the level of Japan, banning shouldn't even cross anyone's mind. Most of our bureaucrats deserve a punch on the face.Not that it would help drive any sense into their heads but at least that would give them a feel of our frustrations. Just look at what number Kenya is on this list

Applause Applause Applause

A country that has a vehicle per capita of A MERE 24 cars per 1000 inhabitants wants to copy paste actions of countries with vehicle per capitas of 500 to 1000+ per 1000 inhabitants??? Some of those countries have not even taken such drastic measures despite the HUGE number of vehicles. Even Zimbabwe has almost FIVE TIMES the vehicle per capita of Kenya. The fact that we even have a traffic problem is a testament of the mediocrity, laziness and lack of planning, thinking etc. on the part of the people involved/in charge.

Let people think!!! And if thinking hurts their brains, replace them with people who can (think)!!!?



Let us think together, how many of these vehicles are in Nrb?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
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