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Are fathers trading their daughters?
Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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I am tempted to dismiss what you've posted here as pure fiction/imagination for reasons best known to you.First,you outline the 3 steps as they should be carried out.From the onset,let it be known to you then, not one step overlaps into the other and thus they are done on three or more occasions. Unfortunately, you go ahead to describe a process where what comes long after dowry negotiations, appears first. You go ahead and carry out procedures in step two at stage one amid so many other mistakes. Let me give you benefit of doubt and assume that you actually went through what you have described.Two things happened, your lead negotiator is a total clueless idiot or two, which i think is a very likely scenario,some of the cash you gave out freely and willingly,is lying in you lead negotiator's Mpesa/Mshwari account.Always remember, a sucker is born every day and a fool is soon parted with his/her money Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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Atalaku wrote:nakujua wrote:Shida ni people are willing to pay such amounts, and the fact that you paid the cash means that you were prepared for it, they know it's cash from the family and friends, not from the young man. People are not willing but are coerced. ..You dont want to look funny bargaining for a price as if the girl is a commodity on sale in an open market where the highest bidder takes it. We wanted to take that route but held ourselves back just to study the situation. ...WHAT WOULD BE THE IDEAL 'TOKEN' FOR for each category? In an ideal situation it should be the visitors deciding what gift they want to give their hosts, not the other way round - otherwise the whole scenario is turned into a market/commodity thing.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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 This must be one of your 'creative thinking' stories. Who does that? Either mulienda mukijiskia masonko or you had a very bogus negotiator, or both. In fact, most of the times, if you give the amount that is asked on the spot without trying to negotiate or to show like you are really struggling to raise that amount, its treated as madharau ndogo ndogo and could lead to much more being asked for in future. Basically, every item that is asked for is fixed...Thenge, mwati, kenda muihuru and all those other things are known. The query that comes is in valuing how much each of them will cost. Eg If its a hundrend sheep, how much do you pay for each? Is it 10k, 5k, 1k, 500bob? Some families will quote one at 30k...then you will negotiate downwards and end up paying 3k per sheep. In some families, the two sides would have met before hand and agreed on how much they will quote...on the d-day, the negotiations are just a formality. The negotiating part is supposed to be fun and to demonstrate the girl you are getting is worth and has been well brought up. That is why you chose her in the first place. All said and done, there are some rogue uncles and aunts that if not controlled can spoil everything. In such cases, I blame the father for not having talked to them first.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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The essence of dowry was and should be, to build links between involved families ,cultivate mutual respect and also to know one another thus avoid cases of cross marriages in two families. The first step would, and remains "kumenya mucii". I believe this cuts across many tribes and it's a two way process. In all cases, it would be the bridegroom entourage visiting the bride's home first. The hosts may offer food and the more elaborate the reception,the better.The hosts though,do not expect anything in return although the visitors will have carried presents.This presents are in ciondos and the ciondos are not likely to go back home empty....The presents take various forms and shapes.At no point are they a subject of any discussions or negotiations and therefore,they cannot be quantified.Here, the Agikuyus then have a saying on the same; "Ya kuheyo ndiroraguo magego". To wind up,dowry is a matter of intense negotiations and since both families hold respect for each other,it's a give and take process.All needs be done is, once agreed, the same is put down and witnessed. There are no conditions as to how much should be given at what point or time. Dowry,therefore is pread over a lifetime.Here again, the Agikuyus have another saying,"Uthoni nduthiraga"....Hopefully,you get someone to interpret for you. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: User Joined: 1/20/2014 Posts: 3,528
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Lakini i have heard stories (bar stories to be exact) that when you go negotiating for a women coming from around Turi hapo Molo, hapo even if its kiuk vs kiuk, you will see dust. Now if its non-kiuk going to get a girl, ni kulia machozi..... bar talk lakini! Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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Othelo wrote:Lakini i have heard stories (bar stories to be exact) that when you go negotiating for a women coming from around Turi hapo Molo, hapo even if its kiuk vs kiuk, you will see dust. Now if its non-kiuk going to get a girl, ni kulia machozi..... bar talk lakini! You must realize that women are not for sale and therefore,dowry is not a price.Let's say women have a zero cash value and this should remain so.When a family attaches some money price value to their daughter,take a walk but if they place a sentimental value onto the girl,you are onto something good  ....and always remember never to go with boys for dowry negotiations...i will tell you an interesting one some day. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/7/2010 Posts: 1,063 Location: Kenya
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Njung'e wrote:I am tempted to dismiss what you've posted here as pure fiction/imagination for reasons best known to you.First,you outline the 3 steps as they should be carried out.From the onset,let it be known to you then, not one step overlaps into the other and thus they are done on three or more occasions. Unfortunately, you go ahead to describe a process where what comes long after dowry negotiations, appears first. You go ahead and carry out procedures in step two at stage one amid so many other mistakes. Let me give you benefit of doubt and assume that you actually went through what you have described.Two things happened, your lead negotiator is a total clueless idiot or two, which i think is a very likely scenario,some of the cash you gave out freely and willingly,is lying in you lead negotiator's Mpesa/Mshwari account.Always remember, a sucker is born every day and a fool is soon parted with his/her money ...I have never been a hater and if I was I would not have agreed to play a part in the exercise, if what i think you are thinking is exactly what you are thinking.. I am not a Kikuyu and so I wouldn't know exactly what comes before what. To be honest on Thursday that is what happened. The father actually produced a list which he gave to the spokesperson to refer to... ...Can I hire you as a spokesman in the next visit? Rather than defend your fellow rogue fathers, you should know that these things exist and should be finding a way of doing away with them.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/7/2010 Posts: 1,063 Location: Kenya
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Njung'e wrote:Othelo wrote:Lakini i have heard stories (bar stories to be exact) that when you go negotiating for a women coming from around Turi hapo Molo, hapo even if its kiuk vs kiuk, you will see dust. Now if its non-kiuk going to get a girl, ni kulia machozi..... bar talk lakini! You must realize that women are not for sale and therefore,dowry is not a price.Let's say women have a zero cash value and this should remain so.When a family attaches some money price value to their daughter,take a walk but if they place a sentimental value onto the girl,you are onto something good ....and always remember never to go with boys for dowry negotiations...i will tell you an interesting one some day. ...Not many think like you...Many are out to make a kill from their daughters ...just like that family I visited made a kill...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/7/2010 Posts: 1,063 Location: Kenya
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Njung'e wrote:The essence of dowry was and should be, to build links between involved families ,cultivate mutual respect and also to know one another thus avoid cases of cross marriages in two families.
The first step would, and remains "kumenya mucii". I believe this cuts across many tribes and it's a two way process. In all cases, it would be the bridegroom entourage visiting the bride's home first. The hosts may offer food and the more elaborate the reception,the better.The hosts though,do not expect anything in return although the visitors will have carried presents.This presents are in ciondos and the ciondos are not likely to go back home empty....The presents take various forms and shapes.At no point are they a subject of any discussions or negotiations and therefore,they cannot be quantified.Here, the Agikuyus then have a saying on the same; "Ya kuheyo ndiroraguo magego".
To wind up,dowry is a matter of intense negotiations and since both families hold respect for each other,it's a give and take process.All needs be done is, once agreed, the same is put down and witnessed. There are no conditions as to how much should be given at what point or time. Dowry,therefore is pread over a lifetime.Here again, the Agikuyus have another saying,"Uthoni nduthiraga"....Hopefully,you get someone to interpret for you. ...Unless the family we visited must be a bogus family hapa umedanganya. This is exactly what happens in ukambani... About the visits, we were told they cannot happen unless we have planted a beacon...Could you be aware of any published book or any other material about Kikuyu marriage customs? I would appreciate and probably I would use it as a reference point....
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Are fathers trading their daughters?
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