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Madness at the NSE
mlennyma
#761 Posted : Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:15:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
And the brokers must help us to frustrate the administration of this unwelcome tax by saying it can't be monitored easily
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
mlennyma
#762 Posted : Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:16:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
And the brokers must help us to frustrate the administration of this unwelcome tax by saying it can't be monitored easily
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Boris Boyka
#763 Posted : Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:43:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2013
Posts: 1,977
Location: Here
mlennyma wrote:
And the brokers must help us to frustrate the administration of this unwelcome tax by saying it can't be monitored easily

Exactly! the Brokers will fight for us this war. CGT will mean HOLD by most shareholders. Brokers will be broke as BUY & SELL are two words that make the brokers rich....na hawatapenda kuskia hold....
Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
maka
#764 Posted : Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:01:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
MaichBlack wrote:
The optimist wrote:
theking wrote:
mkonomtupu wrote:
theking wrote:
i totally disagree with the theory that people are selling stocks pre-CGT and buy them back post-CGT. doesn't make economic sense.

say u bought 10,000 shares of stock X at 50/=, current price is 100/=. if you sell that stock pre-CGT, cost incurred (brokerage fee) is say 2% of the revenue which is 10,000*100*0.02=10,000/=. If you decide to buy back the same shares post=CGT, you'll incur another 2% cost of brokerage of 10,000/=. total cost 20,000/=.

the other scenario is holding onto the shares and selling them post-CGT. costs incurred in this case will be the 10,000/= brokerage fee,plus 5% CGT. profit will be (10,000*100/=)minus(10,000*50/=)=50,000/= less brokerage fee of 10,000/=,net profit of 40,000/=.CGT will be 0.05*40,000=2,000/=. total cost incurred 12,000/= compared to 20,000/= above. also please note that i have not deducted the brokerage fee for buying the shares which should further reduce the taxable profit
#my2cents


The theory is that if you bought your shares in the 1990's when they were dirt cheap CGT uses the year of purchase as the base year to calculate the 5% capital gains. It is much easier to sell and buy back to make 2014 your base year for CGT


it'll still be more expensive to sell and buy back even if the shares were free. do the math

I think MkonoMtupu's theory makes sense. If I bought shares back in the 90s at those rock bottom prices, I'd simply sell and buy back pre-CGT.

Is the CGT being back dated? I doubt! How do you tax gains that were made before the tax was operational. That would not make sense and would be grounds for numerous court cases. But this is Kenya. anything is possible and people in certain offices are bloody lazy!!!

Have they decided on the base year in any case? Last I heard, brokers were saying they didn't have records on when shares were bought and at how much!


There was a KASIB seminar I attended...read this...

1. Commissions and other incidental costs (including credit contexts) must first be deducted from the gains before being subjected to CGT.
2. The issue of compensating tax was also dealt with although not quite comprehensively. However, compensating tax must be regarded separately as a tax specifically designed to deal with tax avoidance. Essentially, when gains are made from the sale of a capital asset, those gains naturally are subjected to CGT. Additionally however, if an entity’s dividend policy supports the distribution of those gains as dividends, the said distribution will be subjected to compensating tax. Obviously, stiff objections to the afore-mentioned arrangement were made with members charging that the situation amounted to double taxation.
3. Disposals made in administering a deceased person’s estate are exempt from CGT.
4. CGT doesn’t apply to losses. Also, losses are to be set-off against future gains when computing CGT on the latter gains. KRA promised to provide further guidance on this issue as it is fairly ‘sensitive’.
5. Brokers will most certainly be the collection agents for CGT. Members raised the issue of the cost of collection as being potentially burdensome. However, members were clear that as far as foreign investors were concerned custodians would perhaps be the more suitable collection agents. KRA didn’t seem to have a firm answer on this but promised to provide a firm way forward.
6. An exchange of property necessitated by acquisition, amalgamation, separation, dissolution or similar restructuring involving one or two companies which if certified by the Treasury CS as having been done in the public interest, shall be exempted from CGT. The law however, fails to define ‘public interest’.
7. As far as the law on CGT is concerned, the date of acquisition is neither here nor there. Members however vociferously urged KRA to set a cut-off date. KRA promised to look into this issue further.

Finally, KASIB members were requested to put together an appropriate memorandum where all contentious and controversial issues should be included so as to enable the same to be properly resolved by KRA and the Treasury CS.


possunt quia posse videntur
mlennyma
#765 Posted : Friday, January 02, 2015 3:46:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
The market didn't show any different signs from the ordinary.
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Metasploit
#766 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 2:42:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 985
Location: Dar es salaam,Tanzania
murchr wrote:
sparkly wrote:
murchr wrote:
Quick question, Do you think that CGT will slow down selling hence making the price of some entities to go up?


Prices are determined by demand and supply. If CGT kills supply, prices go up. If it kills demand, prices collapse.

We might have the latter, IMO.


I tend to think people will hold. Liquidity will be costly


seems this is happening!very few sellers and a few buyers in the market.

If sellers continue holding this position,then it will be interesting (buyers will certainly increase)

“The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.”
mlennyma
#767 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 2:47:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
Very low activity in a vibrant market like ours,something good or bad is cooking.
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
maka
#768 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 2:52:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
mlennyma wrote:
Very low activity in a vibrant market like ours,something good or bad is cooking.


Holiday blues still...good things are coming.
possunt quia posse videntur
murchr
#769 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 3:52:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Metasploit wrote:
murchr wrote:
sparkly wrote:
murchr wrote:
Quick question, Do you think that CGT will slow down selling hence making the price of some entities to go up?


Prices are determined by demand and supply. If CGT kills supply, prices go up. If it kills demand, prices collapse.

We might have the latter, IMO.


I tend to think people will hold. Liquidity will be costly


seems this is happening!very few sellers and a few buyers in the market.

If sellers continue holding this position,then it will be interesting (buyers will certainly increase)



Watching!
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Mastermind
#770 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 4:05:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/25/2012
Posts: 1,624
Location: Langley
maka wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
Very low activity in a vibrant market like ours,something good or bad is cooking.


Holiday blues still...good things are coming.

Treasury likes that. Impact of CGT being felt.
If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
josimar
#771 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 4:22:35 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/6/2010
Posts: 242

Quote:
Treasury likes that. Impact of CGT being felt.


Especially when You are afraid that Your 5% profit margin gets swallowed by the tax.
streetwise
#772 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 4:35:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 6/23/2011
Posts: 1,740
Location: Nairobi
Also helps keep away small speculators
MaichBlack
#773 Posted : Monday, January 05, 2015 6:19:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,535
Boris Boyka wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
And the brokers must help us to frustrate the administration of this unwelcome tax by saying it can't be monitored easily

Exactly! the Brokers will fight for us this war. CGT will mean HOLD by most shareholders. Brokers will be broke as BUY & SELL are two words that make the brokers rich....na hawatapenda kuskia hold....

I don't know if the brokers read your posts or they are just being "practical" but they have started playing hard ball!!!

Link Ndio Hii
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
mlennyma
#774 Posted : Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:53:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
A bullish trend has been observed on several counters, whether it will spread across board or shortlived to usher a bear as predicted by our opposing camp of analysts, time will tell,we are very alert every minute during nse trading hours. thanks as you remain bullish like me.
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
mlennyma
#775 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:14:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
mlennyma wrote:
A bullish trend has been observed on several counters, whether it will spread across board or shortlived to usher a bear as predicted by our opposing camp of analysts, time will tell,we are very alert every minute during nse trading hours. thanks as you remain bullish like me.

the bull continued today spreading to many counters and volumes increased with the first 5 movers doing over 1m shares,iam waiting to see this bear which comes when inflation is easing and fuel dropping in a fuel driven economy. I await FY results rally before the next decision.
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Aguytrying
#776 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:29:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
mlennyma wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
A bullish trend has been observed on several counters, whether it will spread across board or shortlived to usher a bear as predicted by our opposing camp of analysts, time will tell,we are very alert every minute during nse trading hours. thanks as you remain bullish like me.

the bull continued today spreading to many counters and volumes increased with the first 5 movers doing over 1m shares,iam waiting to see this bear which comes when inflation is easing and fuel dropping in a fuel driven economy. I await FY results rally before the next decision.


its hard to tell which way it will go. the low volumes can be explained by CGT uncertainty not necessarily a bear. some laggards are waking up so nse 20 may rise. eg kk, bamburi.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
mlennyma
#777 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:35:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
Aguytrying wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
A bullish trend has been observed on several counters, whether it will spread across board or shortlived to usher a bear as predicted by our opposing camp of analysts, time will tell,we are very alert every minute during nse trading hours. thanks as you remain bullish like me.

the bull continued today spreading to many counters and volumes increased with the first 5 movers doing over 1m shares,iam waiting to see this bear which comes when inflation is easing and fuel dropping in a fuel driven economy. I await FY results rally before the next decision.


its hard to tell which way it will go. the low volumes can be explained by CGT uncertainty not necessarily a bear. some laggards are waking up so nse 20 may rise. eg kk, bamburi.

@aguy funga mshipi twende especially on kk
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Mainat
#778 Posted : Thursday, January 15, 2015 4:06:58 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Great start to 2015. Just need Ekweity to join the party. Why certain interested parties in GoK keep trying to stall its thin simcard I don't know, but my hope is it can motor towards Ksh70 for the year. Yani where it listed some 9 years ago.
Sehemu ndio nyumba
mlennyma
#779 Posted : Friday, January 16, 2015 10:16:29 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,187
Location: nairobi
Mainat wrote:
Great start to 2015. Just need Ekweity to join the party. Why certain interested parties in GoK keep trying to stall its thin simcard I don't know, but my hope is it can motor towards Ksh70 for the year. Yani where it listed some 9 years ago.

if indeed cost of power came down and fuel is down I expect the manufacturing counters to shine
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Kihara joni
#780 Posted : Friday, January 16, 2015 10:32:42 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/8/2013
Posts: 386
Location: Nyali mombasa
Kengen is currently at buy price if price recovers to 14.60/- then that will be a 66% gain but depends on time it will take to recover 1-2 years, months or weeks?
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