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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link  Yes.Thank you for admitting your explanations don't agree with the Quran.We can discuss your views here @symbols, are you always prone to lying? That's not what I said in my statement above. Please read it properly. I said my explanation, which you didn't read, does not agree with what has been alleged in the link.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says. I don't understand your conclusion. Please re-phrase. The explanation you are trying to use to justify the hadiths/sunnah has already been addressed in the link.The Quran refutes hadiths/sunnah. That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link Let me give you a proof:The Quran in sura Nisa chapter 4:59 says: O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger. You're seeking your own explanation above what Allah and His Messenger have clarified. All the verses i've given you, including the last one above have reiterated the importance of following the prophet i.e. the Hadiths. This indicates that Muslims should believe everything he said and obey every command he gave. It goes without saying that he has told Muslims things and given instructions in addition to what is in the Quran. In fact 4:59 says obey your leaders. Obey your president. Obey your government. It says if you differ about something then go back the Quran and check the basic principle. Surely, how much can one explain!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link Yes.Thank you for admitting your explanations don't agree with the Quran.We can discuss your views here @symbols, are you always prone to lying? That's not what I said in my statement above. Please read it properly. I said my explanation, which you didn't read, does not agree with what has been alleged in the link. The link is utilizing the Quran.Your explanations don't agree with the Quran.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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Allah's position. Quran 6:114 wrote:Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Quran 45:6 wrote:These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe? Quran 33:62 wrote:Such was the sunna of God for those who have passed on before. You will find that there is no substitute for the sunna of God. Obeying Allah and obeying the Messenger and your assumption that it implies following the hadiths/sunnah. Quran 5:99 wrote:The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the message. Quran 6:19 wrote:Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Quran 69:43-47 wrote:It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him. The message is clear and your explanations contradict the Quran.Where does the Quran say follow the hadiths/sunnah? Where does is it say they are inspired,protected or preserved by Allah?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link Yes.Thank you for admitting your explanations don't agree with the Quran.We can discuss your views here @symbols, are you always prone to lying? That's not what I said in my statement above. Please read it properly. I said my explanation, which you didn't read, does not agree with what has been alleged in the link. The reply
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:
Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram.
I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity:
"The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18.
In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said:
"...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18)
GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
You will not go to the bible, Alphdoti. You will stay in the Qur'an. So say I. Quote:ransom ~ noun
1. money demanded for the return of a captured person
2. payment for the release of someone
3. the act of freeing from captivity or punishment
ransom ~ verb
1. exchange or buy back for money; under threat 37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice So we can read that 1. Allah paid a fine sheep for the release of the boy from his fate or 2. Allah freed or saved the boy from his captivity or 3. Allah exchanged or bought the boy with a fine sheep.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Allah gave a fine sheep to be killed instead of the boy who was to be killed. Allah saw the obedience of Abraham and hence thought it wise to 'save' the boy from death as a sacrifice. He gave a fine sheep to die instead. Allah Ransomed the boy.
I do not know about you, Alphdoti, but this is so unlike Allah.
1. Allah does not just 'save' someone.
2. Allah does not give a fine sheep to die in the place of someone.
Who put this abomination in the Qur'an?
Who but a liar can tell write these things that Allah can 'save' someone from death by giving a fine sheep to die in his stead?
Mohammed is the liar. He is the one.
He has told lies before. He had also earlier noted that Allah had al Lat, Manat, and Al-Uzza. As if Allah can have sex to have these three.
What other lie has Mohammed told? Is there any truth to any of what he said?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Oh!
Kumbe ile maneno yetu ingine ought to be brought here.
Alphdoti and I ought to leave the ISIS thread to maintain close tabs on its progress.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:
Allah gave a fine sheep to be killed instead of the boy who was to be killed. Allah saw the obedience of Abraham and hence thought it wise to 'save' the boy from death as a sacrifice. He gave a fine sheep to die instead. Allah Ransomed the boy.
I do not know about you, Alphdoti, but this is so unlike Allah.
1. Allah does not just 'save' someone.
2. Allah does not give a fine sheep to die in the place of someone.
Who put this abomination in the Qur'an?
Who but a liar can tell write these things that Allah can 'save' someone from death by giving a fine sheep to die in his stead?
Mohammed is the liar. He is the one.
He has told lies before. He had also earlier noted that Allah had al Lat, Manat, and Al-Uzza. As if Allah can have sex to have these three.
What other lie has Mohammed told? Is there any truth to any of what he said?
@Muriel what is your problem? Why do you expose your ignorance? In your Bible Abraham's only son was saved and replaced with a Lamb, in the Qur'an Abraham's only son was saved and replaced with a Lamb.. Is it that you are too dense to notice they teach the same? @Alph why do you waste time arguing with these swine eating idol worshipers?? Please be reminded of the verse from the Holy Qur'an below: Say O Muhammad: Oh you who disbelieve
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will never worship what you worship,
Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
Your religion is yours, and my religion is mine.Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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guru267 wrote:
@Muriel what is your problem? Why do you expose your ignorance?
In your Bible Abraham's only son was saved and replaced with a Lamb, in the Qur'an Abraham's only son was saved and replaced with a Lamb..
Is it that you are too dense to notice they teach the same?
@Alph why do you waste time arguing with these swine eating idol worshipers??
Please be reminded of the verse from the Holy Qur'an below:
Say O Muhammad: Oh you who disbelieve
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will never worship what you worship,
Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
Your religion is yours, and my religion is mine.
I discovered the only way to provoke a response was to say something personal. I will keep doing it. Uta do? You disagree with me yet ironically you state my point ever so clearly: Someone can be 'Saved' in the Qur'an. And a 'Replacement Lamb' be made for the person being 'Saved'. 1. Allah can 'Save' someone! 2. Allah can provide a 'Replacement Lamb' for someone. Can he? What about me? What will he replace me with? You finally agree with me what I have been trying to tell your brother all this time. Allah 'Saved' the boy! Allah provided a 'Replacement Lamb'. Alphdoti, if its true is a convert, understands where this was going to end up. He understands the nuance, the subtlety and was making every effort to pour cold water on it, to kill it before it got there. Thank you, Guru for thwarting Alphdoti's hard and earnest efforts. Laugh. Laugh. Laugh. This doctrine of Salvation in the Qur'an, of Allah 'Saving' someone, of Allah providing a 'Replacement Lamb' for someone cannot just end here. I am just getting started.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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guru267 wrote:@Muriel what is your problem? Why do you expose your ignorance? Truthfully, I smiled this morning to read @guru267 irksome post. They make life better. So, where have you been? 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram.
I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity:
"The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18.
In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said:
"...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18)
GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
You will not go to the bible, Alphdoti. You will stay in the Qur'an. So say I. Quote:ransom ~ noun
1. money demanded for the return of a captured person
2. payment for the release of someone
3. the act of freeing from captivity or punishment
ransom ~ verb
1. exchange or buy back for money; under threat 37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice So we can read that 1. Allah paid a fine sheep for the release of the boy from his fate or 2. Allah freed or saved the boy from his captivity or 3. Allah exchanged or bought the boy with a fine sheep. @muriel, who told you Allah paid anybody anything? Who told you Allah had put Abraham's son in captivity? If Allah could put someone in captivity, why would it be difficult for Him to free Him? According to you, why is it that Allah could command Abraham to sacrifice his son, but Allah could not command the same Abraham not to sacrifice his son? I know @guka, @shosho, @kindegarten kids understand this: God Almighty wanted to test Abraham. And Abraham passed the test.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Alphdoti,
Yes Abraham passed the test. I do not dispute that but who told anyone that Allah can 'ransom' anybody?
Who wrote in the Qur'an that Allah said "we ransomed him ,,,,,"
Who could write such lies about Allah? That Allah can 'ransom' anyone?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram.
I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity:
"The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18.
In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said:
"...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18)
GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
You will not go to the bible, Alphdoti. You will stay in the Qur'an. So say I. Quote:ransom ~ noun
1. money demanded for the return of a captured person
2. payment for the release of someone
3. the act of freeing from captivity or punishment
ransom ~ verb
1. exchange or buy back for money; under threat 37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice So we can read that 1. Allah paid a fine sheep for the release of the boy from his fate or 2. Allah freed or saved the boy from his captivity or 3. Allah exchanged or bought the boy with a fine sheep. @muriel, who told you Allah paid anybody anything? Who told you Allah had put Abraham's son in captivity? If Allah could put someone in captivity, why would it be difficult for Him to free Him? According to you, why is it that Allah could command Abraham to sacrifice his son, but Allah could not command the same Abraham not to sacrifice his son? I know @guka, @shosho, @kindegarten kids understand this: God Almighty wanted to test Abraham. And Abraham passed the test. Why would God test a human?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram.
I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity:
"The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18.
In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said:
"...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18)
GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
You will not go to the bible, Alphdoti. You will stay in the Qur'an. So say I. Quote:ransom ~ noun
1. money demanded for the return of a captured person
2. payment for the release of someone
3. the act of freeing from captivity or punishment
ransom ~ verb
1. exchange or buy back for money; under threat 37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice So we can read that 1. Allah paid a fine sheep for the release of the boy from his fate or 2. Allah freed or saved the boy from his captivity or 3. Allah exchanged or bought the boy with a fine sheep. @muriel, who told you Allah paid anybody anything? Who told you Allah had put Abraham's son in captivity? If Allah could put someone in captivity, why would it be difficult for Him to free Him? According to you, why is it that Allah could command Abraham to sacrifice his son, but Allah could not command the same Abraham not to sacrifice his son? I know @guka, @shosho, @kindegarten kids understand this: God Almighty wanted to test Abraham. And Abraham passed the test. Why would God test a human? Why not? First, let me know where you stand, what you believe in: Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Budhist, Judaism, or New World Order? NOTE: Nobody can accuse me here of being discriminating, no. Because this is a religious thread to discuss religious issues. So I'm justified to ask where someone stands.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:
Alphdoti,
Yes Abraham passed the test. I do not dispute that but who told anyone that Allah can 'ransom' anybody?
Who wrote in the Qur'an that Allah said "we ransomed him ,,,,,"
Who could write such lies about Allah? That Allah can 'ransom' anyone?
I'm glad you're cooling down and being open mind. You see my brother @muriel, I've been saying in all those words, every person is personally responsible for his or her actions. There is no such thing as man inherits sin. This is summarized by Britisher Major Yeats Brown in his book " Life of a Bengal Lancer", referring to the Christian Doctrine of the Atonement.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram.
I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity:
"The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18.
In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said:
"...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18)
GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
You will not go to the bible, Alphdoti. You will stay in the Qur'an. So say I. Quote:ransom ~ noun
1. money demanded for the return of a captured person
2. payment for the release of someone
3. the act of freeing from captivity or punishment
ransom ~ verb
1. exchange or buy back for money; under threat 37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice So we can read that 1. Allah paid a fine sheep for the release of the boy from his fate or 2. Allah freed or saved the boy from his captivity or 3. Allah exchanged or bought the boy with a fine sheep. @muriel, who told you Allah paid anybody anything? Who told you Allah had put Abraham's son in captivity? If Allah could put someone in captivity, why would it be difficult for Him to free Him? According to you, why is it that Allah could command Abraham to sacrifice his son, but Allah could not command the same Abraham not to sacrifice his son? I know @guka, @shosho, @kindegarten kids understand this: God Almighty wanted to test Abraham. And Abraham passed the test. Why would God test a human? Why not? First, let me know where you stand, what you believe in: Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Budhist, Judaism, or New World Order? NOTE: Nobody can accuse me here of being discriminating, no. Because this is a religious thread to discuss religious issues. So I'm justified to ask where someone stands. I stand for love and truth. And both know no parties. No God would test a human. That would imply doubt and ignorance in God. A contradiction. Wherever one may stand.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:
Alphdoti,
Yes Abraham passed the test. I do not dispute that but who told anyone that Allah can 'ransom' anybody?
Who wrote in the Qur'an that Allah said "we ransomed him ,,,,,"
Who could write such lies about Allah? That Allah can 'ransom' anyone?
I'm glad you're cooling down and being open mind. You see my brother @muriel, I've been saying in all those words, every person is personally responsible for his or her actions. There is no such thing as man inherits sin. This is summarized by Britisher Major Yeats Brown in his book " Life of a Bengal Lancer", referring to the Christian Doctrine of the Atonement. You will stay in the Qur'an. Who wrote in the Qur'an that Allah 'ransomed' someone?
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/21/2007 Posts: 326
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@Alphdoti, please answer @Muriel am also interested to learn Muriel wrote:
You will stay in the Qur'an.
Who wrote in the Qur'an that Allah 'ransomed' someone?
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Just keeping the thread alive.
I'm expecting answers.
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