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Bweta La Uhahifu: Rufaa Mahututi
Mukiri
#21 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:30:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
This is a wake-up call to invest in alternative forms of medicine.

Proverbs 19:21
Bykhovets
#22 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:05:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/17/2014
Posts: 231
I haven't seen the documentary yet.

The problem with KNH Casualty (and the entire KNH) is legendary.

The GoK has never considered healthcare as a priority.
"Occasionally I drop a tea cup to shatter on the floor. On purpose. I am not satisfied when it does not gather itself up again. Someday perhaps that cup will come together."
Rankaz13
#23 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:24:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 2,841
Location: Here
I watched that documentary 'live-live' on k24 yesterday and I hang my head in shame. Shared it with some colleagues and we were all in agreement: sometimes we blame everybody and everything else when the problem is actually ourselves.
Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
murchr
#24 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:36:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
I believe this negligence can be curbed if the docs oversight body was strict enough to make an impact. If this is replicated in all other public facilities, then, we have walking murderes on our streets
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alma
#25 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:00:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
murchr wrote:
I believe this negligence can be curbed if the docs oversight body was strict enough to make an impact. If this is replicated in all other public facilities, then, we have walking murderes on our streets


Are you talking about an oversight body headed by the same fat faces I've seen running that hospital?

You are ever the optimist.

The system is rotten because the people running it are rotten. This is a case of a bed bug attack. Only the ones who burn their mattresses survive.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
babaroy
#26 Posted : Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:01:57 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2013
Posts: 63
Problem with Kenyans, is hat they do not read reports compiled by experts...

A Health systems assessment report funded by USAID in 2010 states that?:

1) Kenya's health care system is grossly underfunded at 6% GDP

2).Inadequate manpower, that is poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly distributed and poorly remunerated.

3). Use of outdated medical technologies.

4). Decision making not based on scientific data.

5). Clashing legislations...
harrydre
#27 Posted : Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:19:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
sad sad sad video to watch! Sad

We need to get serious as Africans!
i.am.back!!!!
Nabwire
#28 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2014 8:42:39 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/22/2011
Posts: 1,325
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.
bkismat
#29 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2014 9:45:12 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 2,375
Nabwire wrote:
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.


You have been away for too long. Private practice exists but the prices are out of range from many mwananchi and they have to make do with KNH MTRH and the Level...... hospitals.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
tycho
#30 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2014 12:42:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
washiku wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
Ndemo did put forth several suggestions in yesterdays DN which include evaluating those who get into med sch before they get in the program. That "A" is not a real measure of qualification, there's need 4 us to learn from best practices applied elsewhere.


How should students be evaluated?

What country or countries should we emulate? And why haven't we been able to learn from such models?


Read Ndemos article


Thank you for the prompt @murchr. I have read it.

Now what am wondering is whether we are supposed to be agreeing with Dr. Ndemo or are supposed to think along him.


What do you think?


The disease is in how we think. Airlifts, and people with a partiality for medicine being given priority are escalating commitment to the disease.

It's curious that Dr. Ndemo isn't talking about making use of digital technology to learn. More health practitioners would learn at lower costs. So why 'airlifts'?

Because of the disease. We are too sick! He's talking about isolation. And he doesn't know that by bowing to the disease, he affirms it and becomes the disease.

Then 'ditto!' and another one, and another one, to the 'nth term'.

'Wimbi la maneno na kelele! Kupanda kelele, na kuvuna kelele'.
murchr
#31 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2014 3:00:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
tycho wrote:
washiku wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
Ndemo did put forth several suggestions in yesterdays DN which include evaluating those who get into med sch before they get in the program. That "A" is not a real measure of qualification, there's need 4 us to learn from best practices applied elsewhere.


How should students be evaluated?

What country or countries should we emulate? And why haven't we been able to learn from such models?


Read Ndemos article


Thank you for the prompt @murchr. I have read it.

Now what am wondering is whether we are supposed to be agreeing with Dr. Ndemo or are supposed to think along him.


What do you think?


The disease is in how we think. Airlifts, and people with a partiality for medicine being given priority are escalating commitment to the disease.

It's curious that Dr. Ndemo isn't talking about making use of digital technology to learn. More health practitioners would learn at lower costs. So why 'airlifts'?

Because of the disease. We are too sick! He's talking about isolation. And he doesn't know that by bowing to the disease, he affirms it and becomes the disease.

Then 'ditto!' and another one, and another one, to the 'nth term'.

'Wimbi la maneno na kelele! Kupanda kelele, na kuvuna kelele'.


Because really med is a practical profession where the partaker has to be there physically. E-learning cannot work here. India has succeeded mainly because of letting students get exposure elsewhere where systems work.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Nabwire
#32 Posted : Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:25:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/22/2011
Posts: 1,325
bkismat wrote:
Nabwire wrote:
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.


You have been away for too long. Private practice exists but the prices are out of range from many mwananchi and they have to make do with KNH MTRH and the Level...... hospitals.


OK so maybe the next solution would be to have the government subsidize medical insurance for the poor, but I know chances of this happening is low. Unfortunately the poor don't know the power they have, they constitute majority of the voters and if they joined forces, they could demand better healthcare from politicians as a condition for voting for them. Another alternative is to mandate Doctors and health professionals to work 10 hours a week at KNH to avoid labor shortage. The new graduates should have no problem with this because they need experience, the established Doctors should have their grants tied to this 10 hour volunteerism. I think its possible to solve this mess since Kenya has a lot of medical professionals
maka
#33 Posted : Sunday, July 27, 2014 11:12:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Nabwire wrote:
bkismat wrote:
Nabwire wrote:
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.


You have been away for too long. Private practice exists but the prices are out of range from many mwananchi and they have to make do with KNH MTRH and the Level...... hospitals.


OK so maybe the next solution would be to have the government subsidize medical insurance for the poor, but I know chances of this happening is low. Unfortunately the poor don't know the power they have, they constitute majority of the voters and if they joined forces, they could demand better healthcare from politicians as a condition for voting for them. Another alternative is to mandate Doctors and health professionals to work 10 hours a week at KNH to avoid labor shortage. The new graduates should have no problem with this because they need experience, the established Doctors should have their grants tied to this 10 hour volunteerism. I think its possible to solve this mess since Kenya has a lot of medical professionals

There is no money to pay the doctors...we,d rather spend money on flashy cars,foreign trips etc all paid up by the GOK.
possunt quia posse videntur
murchr
#34 Posted : Sunday, July 27, 2014 11:23:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Nabwire wrote:
bkismat wrote:
Nabwire wrote:
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.


You have been away for too long. Private practice exists but the prices are out of range from many mwananchi and they have to make do with KNH MTRH and the Level...... hospitals.


OK so maybe the next solution would be to have the government subsidize 1 medical insurance for the poor, but I know chances of this happening is low. Unfortunately the poor don't know the power they have, they constitute majority of the voters and if they joined forces, they could demand better healthcare from politicians as a condition for voting for them. 2 Another alternative is to mandate Doctors and health professionals to work 10 hours a week at KNH to avoid labor shortage. The new graduates should have no problem with this because they need experience, the established Doctors should have their grants tied to this 10 hour volunteerism. I think its possible to solve this mess since Kenya has a lot of medical professionals



I think #1 is what NHIF is subsidized insurance for the under privileged in the society they had plans to expand it tho i dont know what happened after the Atwoli and Ny'ong'o issue. NHIF caters for private hospitals too.

On #2, i dont think KNH has such a shortfall of medical personnel. Maybe specialized doctors but not clinical officers nurses lab admins etc Most of them are busy running kiosks in the name of clinics, labs and dispensaries. What they need is a system where they can have their work hours recorded in a time-stamp.

Anyway, @Rankaz13 and Jguru know better
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
babaroy
#35 Posted : Monday, July 28, 2014 10:07:13 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2013
Posts: 63
@ Muchr....donn't think wrong.Kindly dig up some UN/WHO statistics on health manpower levels in Kenya then compare the same with developed world...only then will you start thinking right.

#2 with the exception of the laboratory, most service points manned by paramedics do not subject patients to prolonged waiting time..eg pharmacy, physio, records, injection room, dressing room, plaster room, ordinary X-ray,phlebotomy, et al. unfortunately these paramedics are not entrusted with clinical decision making..a task left to the few experts.

#3 Private clinics used to be the in thing in the late 90's. Now, most KNH employees have moved to things like green house farming, stocks, real estate, clothing, transport etc.

#4 the 40 hrs per week rule applies to most paramedics. Some even put in overtime...
Bykhovets
#36 Posted : Monday, July 28, 2014 11:24:13 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/17/2014
Posts: 231
murchr wrote:
Nabwire wrote:
bkismat wrote:
Nabwire wrote:
Maybe I'm naïve but it looks like the workers are overworked and underpaid. Looks like they don't have enough personnel that's why you come in at night and have to wait until the next day to have an xray. This is really sad coz the patients suffer and die needlessly. I'm just wondering why the doctors cant just form their own private practice, this will give them incentives to work longer and treat patients well, coz they will essentially be self employed. With private practices, competition will force the doctors to work more efficiently and hire adequate staff, coz if your services are poor, the patient can just opt to take their business elsewhere. I'm not sure if private practices are even allowed in Kenya.


You have been away for too long. Private practice exists but the prices are out of range from many mwananchi and they have to make do with KNH MTRH and the Level...... hospitals.


OK so maybe the next solution would be to have the government subsidize 1 medical insurance for the poor, but I know chances of this happening is low. Unfortunately the poor don't know the power they have, they constitute majority of the voters and if they joined forces, they could demand better healthcare from politicians as a condition for voting for them. 2 Another alternative is to mandate Doctors and health professionals to work 10 hours a week at KNH to avoid labor shortage. The new graduates should have no problem with this because they need experience, the established Doctors should have their grants tied to this 10 hour volunteerism. I think its possible to solve this mess since Kenya has a lot of medical professionals



I think #1 is what NHIF is subsidized insurance for the under privileged in the society they had plans to expand it tho i dont know what happened after the Atwoli and Ny'ong'o issue. NHIF caters for private hospitals too.

On #2, i dont think KNH has such a shortfall of medical personnel. Maybe specialized doctors but not clinical officers nurses lab admins etc Most of them are busy running kiosks in the name of clinics, labs and dispensaries. What they need is a system where they can have their work hours recorded in a time-stamp.

Anyway, @Rankaz13 and Jguru know better


I'll help @jguru out smile

KNH is greatly underfunded and has a huge shortage of staff especially doctors. There's almost always a medicine and supplies crisis, and most of the diagnostic equipment hardly works.

There has been immense pressure over the years for University of Nairobi to build its own hospital and relocate from KNH. When this happens it will be evident that a vast majority of the doctors there actually work for THE (professors, lecturers, registrars) and this is the reason why most of them do not bother seeing KNH patients outside teaching hours.

KNH is operationally sicker than the patients it cares for. They recently recruited 25 casualty (A&E) doctors but the pay was low and often delayed. All those casualty doctors have since quit KNH.

The best way to bail out KNH is to donate it to THE, call it University of Nairobi Hospital and let them wholly manage it. I guarantee a 360 degree turnaround in patient satisfaction, medical outcomes and financial integrity.
"Occasionally I drop a tea cup to shatter on the floor. On purpose. I am not satisfied when it does not gather itself up again. Someday perhaps that cup will come together."
babaroy
#37 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:18:13 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2013
Posts: 63
@Bykhovets.
#1KNH and UON operate under different legislation.
#2 UoN has a dental hospital across Nairobi hospital. It has no subsidies...You can not get services without cash. on the other hand, KNH is owed billions in unpaid bills by poverty stricken Kenyans...
#3 some of the services offered at KNH are greatly subsidized. CT Scan 5,500/= as opposed to 10,000/= at MP shah. MRI scan 15,000/= as opposed to 30k. second line oral antibiotics 500/= as opposed to 2k. consultation 550/= as opposed to 3k in some private sector players...
murchr
#38 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:48:01 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
@Bykhovets I always thought or rather assumed that KNH is where THE students have their Residency ama? What about KMTC?

From my basic understanding on how a hospital runs, a doc is not your first point of contact, s/he is available to see you once you have been tested and symptoms diagnosed isn't that the reason why there are clinical officers lab technicians who will then refer you to the doctor specialized in your ailment ama?

If indeed most of those working at KNH are THE lecturers then indeed there's a problem that needs a committee seating.

Funding should not be an excuse, Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, yet its one of the poorest countries that we have in this world. Healthcare is free in Cuba.

Here is KNH's response. Elsewhere in the world several heads would have rolled.

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
babaroy
#39 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:33:22 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/11/2013
Posts: 63
@murchr. . Clinical officers and community Nurses are usually deployed at the grassroots level. KNH is a referral hospital, hence requires specialists who can treat what clinical officers cannot handle.

The only clinical officers working in KNH can be found in ENT, Pediatrics Eye clinics and anesthesia. Even so, they do practice under the supervision of the doctors
kysse
#40 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:56:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth

Here is KNH's response. Elsewhere in the world several heads would have rolled.

[/quote]

I gave up on our systems and accepted that we have archaic thinking people at the helm of our institutions.
Their kids attend private hospitals,so why bother with the poor masses?
The one responsible for Maintenance will say it's lack of funds.
The guy responsible for funds will blame the patients for not paying!
How can this be called a National Referral Hospital when it runs like a village clinic?
Woi just sacrifice to take your loved ones to a private hospital cz this is one big referral morgue.

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