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Malaysian aircrash again!!!!!!!!!
Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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hi kitu is now political, so it depends on which side your information comes from - but one gets the feeling the western media is pushing the blame to the rebels, even if the russians did it the west can do nothing.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Those believing that the leader of the separatists sent a tweet, have you seen it, or you'll say no one retweeted it? Even deleted content can be dug out. This is so much the work of the Ukrainian Govt. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Kratos wrote:ecstacy wrote:ecstacy wrote:Posting without a wider assessment of facts is evident from quite a few here.
Other than this area being under the firm control of the pro-Russian forces the following is compelling not speculative:
1. The leader of the pro-Russian separatist movement on his Russian version of twitter boasted about his troops having brought down "another [Ukrainian] bird" just to immediately pull it down when they realised it was a passenger jet. Lucky enough, screen shots were taken by readers for posterity and investigative purposes.
Igor Strelkov – also known as Igor Girkin – the leader of the pro-Russian separatists fighting the Ukrainian government forces for control of eastern Ukraine, used his page on the social networking site Vkontakte to boast that his men had just shot down an aircraft. In a message posted at 2.50 p.m. BST, he wrote: “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine.
“We warned them not to fly in ‘our skies.’ Here is video confirmation of the latest ‘fallen bird.’ The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”
His post was accompanied by a video of a plume of black smoke rising from the ground, one of several videos that were posted online within two hours of MH17 going missing. It quickly became clear that an aircraft had indeed come down near the village of Grabovo in the Torez area, 25 miles from the Russian border, but the wreckage bore the distinctive white, red and blue livery of Malaysian Airlines.
2. The Ukrainian intelligence forces intercepted comms between two senior pro-Russian separatist movement leaders and played it for global media to make their own assessment. The chaps talking quite clearly about their men taking down this passenger jet.
3. Multiple and independent reports and pictures of SAM Russian missiles in the area in recent days.
4. 2 Ukrainian planes shot down in recent days at 5KM altitude.
What else do you want?
The above against speculation that:
1. Ukraine wanted to shoot down "Putin's" plane and risk all out war with a major global nuclear power so as "to get attention" and "the world behind them"..
Sometimes for some even if the truth stood right infront of them, they would deny it. Firstly never substitute compelling evidence for FACT. An issue can have compelling evidence depending on how it is presented without being Factual. Case in point: Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. In your first point above regarding the tweet, if you can please post it here and the possible proof that it actually originated from the leader of the separatists. That then will be a fact. Secondly you have taken as truth/fact what the Ukrainian officials said regarding intercepting communication. Exactly how hard is it for them to fake a recording and play it to the gallery. Very simple form of propaganda. In fact it would still be easy for the separatists to come up with their own recording blaming the Ukrainian government. Pictures of weapons in the enemies hands do not confirm that they indeed blew up the plane. If I posted here pictures of russian missiles in Ukrainian army barracks how would that be compelling evidence to assume that the Ukrainians did it? Again if the separatist blew up planes earlier in the week hows that proof for this one? Isn't it the same thing we are facing here in Kenya with Shabaabs? There have been so many attacks and we easily blame the shabaabs while some of them have actually nothing to do with shabaab militants. Don't settle for conclusions that other people have put in place for you. Anyway little matters now since the objective of the downing of the plane is already at play. Why do you believe the Ukranian plane crashed or was shot down? Is it because of those Western media pictures you have seen through Western controlled internet and other Western controlled technology? Case closed.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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 @ Ecstasy, hardly the same argument. The plane being brought down is not in dispute. The difference is in how it was brought down and by whom since there is no factual evidence for any side. Am not even saying that its not the Russians or separatists, but that the "compelling evidence" you have laid bare scarcely represents facts. In my world those are called possibilities not Facts.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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The intercepted voice comms between an individual "Bes" reporting the plane being shot down to his field coordinator Vasyl Mykolaiovych who is the colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Russian Armed Forces. The audio is obviously now in the hands of the US and Russian intelligence via their officials for verification.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Hapana!! Using your argument, what makes you think that the plane being brought down is a "fact"? It's a mere "possibility" given you base it on prepared pictures sent to you, ama you were in E Ukraine? Maybe, the US wants us to hate Russia given Kenya has been going East. I mean, N. Korea believe they made it to the World Cup final.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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ecstacy wrote:Hapana!! Using your argument, what makes you think that the plane being brought down is a "fact"? It's a mere "possibility" given you base it on prepared pictures sent to you, ama you were in E Ukraine? Maybe, the US wants us to hate Russia given Kenya has been going East. I mean, N. Korea believe they made it to the World Cup final. Ok then lets discuss what is fact then. fact
noun \ˈfakt\
: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existenceA fact (derived from the Latin factum, is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experienceWas the plane brought down? Yes it can be independently be verified by the Ukranians, the Russians, pro-Russian separatists, Malaysian Airlines, the US, the Brits etc.. Your turn, in your compelling evidence, prove it to be fact using the same definition and standards and don't go Tycho here.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Kratos wrote:ecstacy wrote:Hapana!! Using your argument, what makes you think that the plane being brought down is a "fact"? It's a mere "possibility" given you base it on prepared pictures sent to you, ama you were in E Ukraine? Maybe, the US wants us to hate Russia given Kenya has been going East. I mean, N. Korea believe they made it to the World Cup final. Ok then lets discuss what is fact then. fact
noun \ˈfakt\
: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existenceA fact (derived from the Latin factum, is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experienceWas the plane brought down? Yes it can be independently be verified by the Ukranians, the Russians, pro-Russian separatists, Malaysian Airlines, the US, the Brits etc..Your turn, in your compelling evidence, prove it to be fact using the same definition and standards and don't go Tycho here. Please confirm, you have used the Western technology (print and digital) to arrive at the conclusion that the plane being shot down was a "fact"?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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ecstacy wrote:Hapana!! Using your argument, what makes you think that the plane being brought down is a "fact"? It's a mere "possibility" given you base it on prepared pictures sent to you, ama you were in E Ukraine? Maybe, the US wants us to hate Russia given Kenya has been going East. I mean, N. Korea believe they made it to the World Cup final. Maybe there was a timed bomb in the plane.... i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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ecstacy wrote:Kratos wrote:ecstacy wrote:Hapana!! Using your argument, what makes you think that the plane being brought down is a "fact"? It's a mere "possibility" given you base it on prepared pictures sent to you, ama you were in E Ukraine? Maybe, the US wants us to hate Russia given Kenya has been going East. I mean, N. Korea believe they made it to the World Cup final. Ok then lets discuss what is fact then. fact
noun \ˈfakt\
: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existenceA fact (derived from the Latin factum, is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experienceWas the plane brought down? Yes it can be independently be verified by the Ukranians, the Russians, pro-Russian separatists, Malaysian Airlines, the US, the Brits etc..Your turn, in your compelling evidence, prove it to be fact using the same definition and standards and don't go Tycho here. Please confirm, you have used the Western technology (print and digital) to arrive at the conclusion that the plane being shot down was a "fact"? Lets not get carried away here and forget the meat of the matter by chasing the bone. Simply provide independently verifiable evidence that your compelling evidence is fact, nothing more.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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