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Malaysian aircrash again!!!!!!!!!
Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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AlphDoti wrote:ecstacy wrote:bkismat wrote:ecstacy wrote:ecstacy wrote:Posting without a wider assessment of facts is evident from quite a few here.
Other than this area being under the firm control of the pro-Russian forces the following is compelling not speculative:
1. The leader of the pro-Russian separatist movement on his Russian version of twitter boasted about his troops having brought down "another [Ukrainian] bird" just to immediately pull it down when they realised it was a passenger jet. Lucky enough, screen shots were taken by readers for posterity and investigative purposes.
Igor Strelkov – also known as Igor Girkin – the leader of the pro-Russian separatists fighting the Ukrainian government forces for control of eastern Ukraine, used his page on the social networking site Vkontakte to boast that his men had just shot down an aircraft. In a message posted at 2.50 p.m. BST, he wrote: “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine.
“We warned them not to fly in ‘our skies.’ Here is video confirmation of the latest ‘fallen bird.’ The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”
His post was accompanied by a video of a plume of black smoke rising from the ground, one of several videos that were posted online within two hours of MH17 going missing. It quickly became clear that an aircraft had indeed come down near the village of Grabovo in the Torez area, 25 miles from the Russian border, but the wreckage bore the distinctive white, red and blue livery of Malaysian Airlines.
2. The Ukrainian intelligence forces intercepted comms between two senior pro-Russian separatist movement leaders and played it for global media to make their own assessment. The chaps talking quite clearly about their men taking down this passenger jet.
3. Multiple and independent reports and pictures of SAM Russian missiles in the area in recent days.
4. 2 Ukrainian planes shot down in recent days at 5KM altitude.
What else do you want?
The above against speculation that:
1. Ukraine wanted to shoot down "Putin's" plane and risk all out war with a major global nuclear power so as "to get attention" and "the world behind them"..
Sometimes for some even if the truth stood right infront of them, they would deny it. That is a conspiracy by the West to make Russia look bad and give them an excuse to invade Eastern Ukraine I do not like hypocritical Western policy but surely yours is another broad unsubstantiated statement. Less emotion, more facts. What facts do you have to back your claim? @ecstacy nobody has facts as to who did it. We only have possibilities based on what we know. Quote:The finger of blame quickly pointed at the pro-Russian rebels, largely because of the earlier claim of shooting down an aircraft but also because a Ukrainian cargo aircraft had been shot down days before by a surface-to-air missile.
Ukraine’s president Petro Poroshenko described the incident as a “terrorist act,” having earlier said: “We do not exclude that the plane was shot down and confirm that the Ukraine armed forces did not fire at any targets in the sky.” So on one side, we can go with fingers pointed at the pro-Russian rebels. I cannot say that's correct or wrong, simply because nobody is sure. But you forgot to post the following from the same article Quote:Meanwhile, another faction, the Lugansk People’s Republic, blamed Ukraine, saying in a statement: “Witnesses watching the flight of the Boeing 777 passenger plane saw it being attacked by a battle plane of the Ukrainian forces.
“After that the passenger plane split in two in the air and fell on the territory of the Donetsk People’s Republic.” So my experience tells me, anything is possible, even the most unsuspected party maybe the culprit who takes advantage of an opportunity for an agenda. So for now I rest my case. The difference between you and me is I actually posted facts as to what you can refer to as circumstantial evidence which is acceptable in courts of law. You yourself have not disapproved anything factually I posted. It's the conclusion you are disputing. That is obviously open at this stage hence why an investigation is underway. But to reply to facts I posted with a "it's a Western conspiracy" without providing counter facts, circumstantial or actual, is lowering the discussion bar.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/17/2013 Posts: 4,693 Location: Earth
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2009 Posts: 2,375
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ecstacy wrote:bkismat wrote:ecstacy wrote:ecstacy wrote:Posting without a wider assessment of facts is evident from quite a few here.
Other than this area being under the firm control of the pro-Russian forces the following is compelling not speculative:
1. The leader of the pro-Russian separatist movement on his Russian version of twitter boasted about his troops having brought down "another [Ukrainian] bird" just to immediately pull it down when they realised it was a passenger jet. Lucky enough, screen shots were taken by readers for posterity and investigative purposes.
Igor Strelkov – also known as Igor Girkin – the leader of the pro-Russian separatists fighting the Ukrainian government forces for control of eastern Ukraine, used his page on the social networking site Vkontakte to boast that his men had just shot down an aircraft. In a message posted at 2.50 p.m. BST, he wrote: “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine.
“We warned them not to fly in ‘our skies.’ Here is video confirmation of the latest ‘fallen bird.’ The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”
His post was accompanied by a video of a plume of black smoke rising from the ground, one of several videos that were posted online within two hours of MH17 going missing. It quickly became clear that an aircraft had indeed come down near the village of Grabovo in the Torez area, 25 miles from the Russian border, but the wreckage bore the distinctive white, red and blue livery of Malaysian Airlines.
2. The Ukrainian intelligence forces intercepted comms between two senior pro-Russian separatist movement leaders and played it for global media to make their own assessment. The chaps talking quite clearly about their men taking down this passenger jet.
3. Multiple and independent reports and pictures of SAM Russian missiles in the area in recent days.
4. 2 Ukrainian planes shot down in recent days at 5KM altitude.
What else do you want?
The above against speculation that:
1. Ukraine wanted to shoot down "Putin's" plane and risk all out war with a major global nuclear power so as "to get attention" and "the world behind them"..
Sometimes for some even if the truth stood right infront of them, they would deny it. That is a conspiracy by the West to make Russia look bad and give them an excuse to invade Eastern Ukraine I do not like hypocritical Western policy but surely yours is another broad unsubstantiated statement. Less emotion, more facts. What facts do you have to back your claim? Yes that is the truth and nothing but the truth cant you see? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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bkismat wrote:ecstacy wrote:bkismat wrote:ecstacy wrote:ecstacy wrote:Posting without a wider assessment of facts is evident from quite a few here.
Other than this area being under the firm control of the pro-Russian forces the following is compelling not speculative:
1. The leader of the pro-Russian separatist movement on his Russian version of twitter boasted about his troops having brought down "another [Ukrainian] bird" just to immediately pull it down when they realised it was a passenger jet. Lucky enough, screen shots were taken by readers for posterity and investigative purposes.
Igor Strelkov – also known as Igor Girkin – the leader of the pro-Russian separatists fighting the Ukrainian government forces for control of eastern Ukraine, used his page on the social networking site Vkontakte to boast that his men had just shot down an aircraft. In a message posted at 2.50 p.m. BST, he wrote: “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine.
“We warned them not to fly in ‘our skies.’ Here is video confirmation of the latest ‘fallen bird.’ The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”
His post was accompanied by a video of a plume of black smoke rising from the ground, one of several videos that were posted online within two hours of MH17 going missing. It quickly became clear that an aircraft had indeed come down near the village of Grabovo in the Torez area, 25 miles from the Russian border, but the wreckage bore the distinctive white, red and blue livery of Malaysian Airlines.
2. The Ukrainian intelligence forces intercepted comms between two senior pro-Russian separatist movement leaders and played it for global media to make their own assessment. The chaps talking quite clearly about their men taking down this passenger jet.
3. Multiple and independent reports and pictures of SAM Russian missiles in the area in recent days.
4. 2 Ukrainian planes shot down in recent days at 5KM altitude.
What else do you want?
The above against speculation that:
1. Ukraine wanted to shoot down "Putin's" plane and risk all out war with a major global nuclear power so as "to get attention" and "the world behind them"..
Sometimes for some even if the truth stood right infront of them, they would deny it. That is a conspiracy by the West to make Russia look bad and give them an excuse to invade Eastern Ukraine I do not like hypocritical Western policy but surely yours is another broad unsubstantiated statement. Less emotion, more facts. What facts do you have to back your claim? Yes that is the truth and nothing but the truth cant you see? @bkismat, If it can be the US, it can be Russia or China so tafadhali, utilize that bandwidth and server space appropriately. I asked you to provide facts, until then, wacha nitulie kukuhusu.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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why the fuss, the russians, ukranians and americans have in the past blatantly shot down commercial planes, the truth will be buried whichever way - either the americans or the russians will - pole to the families, lakini hi ni collateral damage
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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nakujua wrote:why the fuss, the russians, ukranians and americans have in the past blatantly shot down commercial planes, the truth will be buried whichever way - either the americans or the russians will - pole to the families, lakini hi ni collateral damage Especially vile black box imepelekwa Moscow. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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ecstacy wrote:Let me help the West 'haters' a little, you need it.
The US decision to support the Mujahideen against Russia in Afghanistan came to haunt them when they ended up having to fight the same group which had since evolved to the Taliban.
The US decision to train rebels in Jordan and arm them to fight Assad came to bite them in the @ss when some of them ended up forming ISIS and are now involved in the most gruesome acts of inhumanity in living memory in Iraq and worse against fellow rebels in Syria.
Face it now, the Russia decision to arm the pro-Russia rebels in Ukraine has come to bite a good chunk of their @ss in Ukraine. Boneheads with weapons!!! I've never seen such an illogical conclusion. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2009 Posts: 2,375
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Media reports said as many as 100 researchers, activists and medical personnel who were headed to the conference in Melbourne, Australia, perished in the crash, yet this has not officially been confirmed by the International AIDS Society. It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/17/2009 Posts: 2,040 Location: GA
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Othelo wrote:Most of the bodies dont have clothes, kwani? That plane was 30000 ft when it was shot some bodies must have started to fall at that time .Cant even begin to imagine those who survived the missile but fell to their deaths
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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ecstacy wrote:ecstacy wrote:Posting without a wider assessment of facts is evident from quite a few here.
Other than this area being under the firm control of the pro-Russian forces the following is compelling not speculative:
1. The leader of the pro-Russian separatist movement on his Russian version of twitter boasted about his troops having brought down "another [Ukrainian] bird" just to immediately pull it down when they realised it was a passenger jet. Lucky enough, screen shots were taken by readers for posterity and investigative purposes.
Igor Strelkov – also known as Igor Girkin – the leader of the pro-Russian separatists fighting the Ukrainian government forces for control of eastern Ukraine, used his page on the social networking site Vkontakte to boast that his men had just shot down an aircraft. In a message posted at 2.50 p.m. BST, he wrote: “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine.
“We warned them not to fly in ‘our skies.’ Here is video confirmation of the latest ‘fallen bird.’ The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”
His post was accompanied by a video of a plume of black smoke rising from the ground, one of several videos that were posted online within two hours of MH17 going missing. It quickly became clear that an aircraft had indeed come down near the village of Grabovo in the Torez area, 25 miles from the Russian border, but the wreckage bore the distinctive white, red and blue livery of Malaysian Airlines.
2. The Ukrainian intelligence forces intercepted comms between two senior pro-Russian separatist movement leaders and played it for global media to make their own assessment. The chaps talking quite clearly about their men taking down this passenger jet.
3. Multiple and independent reports and pictures of SAM Russian missiles in the area in recent days.
4. 2 Ukrainian planes shot down in recent days at 5KM altitude.
What else do you want?
The above against speculation that:
1. Ukraine wanted to shoot down "Putin's" plane and risk all out war with a major global nuclear power so as "to get attention" and "the world behind them"..
Sometimes for some even if the truth stood right infront of them, they would deny it. Firstly never substitute compelling evidence for FACT. An issue can have compelling evidence depending on how it is presented without being Factual. Case in point: Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. In your first point above regarding the tweet, if you can please post it here and the possible proof that it actually originated from the leader of the separatists. That then will be a fact. Secondly you have taken as truth/fact what the Ukrainian officials said regarding intercepting communication. Exactly how hard is it for them to fake a recording and play it to the gallery. Very simple form of propaganda. In fact it would still be easy for the separatists to come up with their own recording blaming the Ukrainian government. Pictures of weapons in the enemies hands do not confirm that they indeed blew up the plane. If I posted here pictures of russian missiles in Ukrainian army barracks how would that be compelling evidence to assume that the Ukrainians did it? Again if the separatist blew up planes earlier in the week hows that proof for this one? Isn't it the same thing we are facing here in Kenya with Shabaabs? There have been so many attacks and we easily blame the shabaabs while some of them have actually nothing to do with shabaab militants. Don't settle for conclusions that other people have put in place for you. Anyway little matters now since the objective of the downing of the plane is already at play.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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