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The Revolution of Consciusness
symbols
#131 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:10:50 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


There's such a science. It's mathematics. Relativism isn't a problem, neither is absolutism alone a necessity. Or has mathematics ever been disturbed by relativism?

Does 'anything go' in mathematics? No.

Show me how morality is mathematics. Give me a formula like a+b=it's moral to kill or c-d=peace.Define the word morality using mathematics.
Wakanyugi
#132 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:13:35 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


Mhhhmmmm...interesting question.

I have never thought of morality as a science question. More as a philosophical take on the implications of science, and other things, to human life.

But I am sure Tycho and Muriel have a different take on this.smile

As for moral relativism, if you mean this as the opposite of moral absolutes, I fear you are on a very slippery slope here. There are no absolutes in our neck of the Universe.


Are you absolutely sure?



Tell me one absolute.

Even the laws of physics are not absolute. They have simply not been disproven, yet.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#133 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:15:11 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
@Wakanyugi, if 'destroy' is a word, then it entails knowledge, under any given definition.


I think we can agree that destroy is a word. What I have a problem with is the connotation of a moral absolute, that destroying is always bad.

Taken to an extreme - would destroying an alien species that threatened the Earth and all that is in it be bad?

That alien species is us.


No, I do not imply that destroying is absolutely bad. Good and bad are in dialectic. That's morality.

Am only saying morality entails knowledge. And that all words are about morality.


I understand now.

Then I could say what we need is not a new language but new knowledge (if such a thing exists) to understand the evolving morality.

In a reality where we recognize all things to be conscious we have to define a completely new way of relating to life. This will be a wrenching change, something akin to Galileo's overthrow of accepted reality when he postulated the Heliocentric model.

For instance, can we argue vegetarianism as a moral choice (to protect poor animals) if plants have life, feelings and hence similar rights to animals? If we can't eat plants or animals with a clear conscience where does that leave us?

Does this not lead us to the implication that life, of itself, (including human life) has no intrinsic value or special regard, all depends on utility?

At least I can see us learning from hunter gatherer societies who believe everything has a spirit and honor animals even as they kill them for food. Interesting times indeed.




All I can say, is that you are putting new wine in old wine skins. The Jains and Buddhists, and all world views have to be transformed. The dream time, and the spirits are neither spared.

Before the plant bears customized fruit, the farmer will have negotiated with it on mutual terms.
symbols
#134 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:19:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


Mhhhmmmm...interesting question.

I have never thought of morality as a science question. More as a philosophical take on the implications of science, and other things, to human life.

But I am sure Tycho and Muriel have a different take on this.smile

As for moral relativism, if you mean this as the opposite of moral absolutes, I fear you are on a very slippery slope here. There are no absolutes in our neck of the Universe.


Are you absolutely sure?



Tell me one absolute.

Even the laws of physics are not absolute. They have simply not been disproven, yet.

This always ends with,is relativism absolute?
Wakanyugi
#135 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:22:03 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
@Wakanyugi, if 'destroy' is a word, then it entails knowledge, under any given definition.


I think we can agree that destroy is a word. What I have a problem with is the connotation of a moral absolute, that destroying is always bad.

Taken to an extreme - would destroying an alien species that threatened the Earth and all that is in it be bad?

That alien species is us.


No, I do not imply that destroying is absolutely bad. Good and bad are in dialectic. That's morality.

Am only saying morality entails knowledge. And that all words are about morality.


I understand now.

Then I could say what we need is not a new language but new knowledge (if such a thing exists) to understand the evolving morality.

In a reality where we recognize all things to be conscious we have to define a completely new way of relating to life. This will be a wrenching change, something akin to Galileo's overthrow of accepted reality when he postulated the Heliocentric model.

For instance, can we argue vegetarianism as a moral choice (to protect poor animals) if plants have life, feelings and hence similar rights to animals? If we can't eat plants or animals with a clear conscience where does that leave us?

Does this not lead us to the implication that life, of itself, (including human life) has no intrinsic value or special regard, all depends on utility?

At least I can see us learning from hunter gatherer societies who believe everything has a spirit and honor animals even as they kill them for food. Interesting times indeed.




All I can say, is that you are putting new wine in old wine skins. The Jains and Buddhists, and all world views have to be transformed. The dream time, and the spirits are neither spared.

Before the plant bears customized fruit, the farmer will have negotiated with it on mutual terms.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

Tycho my brother. Thanks for the laugh.

I can just see you dialoguing with a banana plant.

"Listen old fellow. I promise to feed you and water you. In return you must promise to let me eat your children when they are of age."

Jokes aside, you are evading my questions. Where would our morality construct fit in such a scenario? What will it take for us to accept such disruptive change?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#136 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:28:03 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


Mhhhmmmm...interesting question.

I have never thought of morality as a science question. More as a philosophical take on the implications of science, and other things, to human life.

But I am sure Tycho and Muriel have a different take on this.smile

As for moral relativism, if you mean this as the opposite of moral absolutes, I fear you are on a very slippery slope here. There are no absolutes in our neck of the Universe.


Are you absolutely sure?



Tell me one absolute.

Even the laws of physics are not absolute. They have simply not been disproven, yet.

This always ends with,is relativism absolute?


I think the rules that construct our Universe make it impossible for any absolute to exist. The basic premise is that, as long as the possibility exists that something can be falsified, it can not be an absolute.

I am not aware of any belief system, theory or even perception that can not be falsified. Are you?

Even relativism can possibly be falsified, as you are trying to do.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#137 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:28:22 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


There's such a science. It's mathematics. Relativism isn't a problem, neither is absolutism alone a necessity. Or has mathematics ever been disturbed by relativism?

Does 'anything go' in mathematics? No.

Show me how morality is mathematics. Give me a formula like a+b=it's moral to kill or c-d=peace.Define the word morality using mathematics.


First, morality is in either or both 'human' and or 'God' or 'Supernatural' and 'natural' domains. Both terms have their own limits. Hence can be described mathematically.

Next, the range of human, or God or natural behavior can be described within these limits.

Then a system of relations can be described, and different results derived. And optimal conditions described.

Another way to go about it is to remember every event is energic. Therefore going with the law of conservation of energy one can deduce different events adding up to a constant.
tycho
#138 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:31:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


Mhhhmmmm...interesting question.

I have never thought of morality as a science question. More as a philosophical take on the implications of science, and other things, to human life.

But I am sure Tycho and Muriel have a different take on this.smile

As for moral relativism, if you mean this as the opposite of moral absolutes, I fear you are on a very slippery slope here. There are no absolutes in our neck of the Universe.


Are you absolutely sure?



Tell me one absolute.

Even the laws of physics are not absolute. They have simply not been disproven, yet.

This always ends with,is relativism absolute?


I think the rules that construct our Universe make it impossible for any absolute to exist. The basic premise is that, as long as the possibility exists that something can be falsified, it can not be an absolute.

I am not aware of any belief system, theory or even perception that can not be falsified. Are you?

Even relativism can possibly be falsified, as you are trying to do.


An absolute can expand. That is, an absolute can 'relativize'. Like the boundary conditions of a ball from deflation to inflation.
symbols
#139 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:36:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


Mhhhmmmm...interesting question.

I have never thought of morality as a science question. More as a philosophical take on the implications of science, and other things, to human life.

But I am sure Tycho and Muriel have a different take on this.smile

As for moral relativism, if you mean this as the opposite of moral absolutes, I fear you are on a very slippery slope here. There are no absolutes in our neck of the Universe.


Are you absolutely sure?



Tell me one absolute.

Even the laws of physics are not absolute. They have simply not been disproven, yet.

This always ends with,is relativism absolute?


I think the rules that construct our Universe make it impossible for any absolute to exist. The basic premise is that, as long as the possibility exists that something can be falsified, it can not be an absolute.

I am not aware of any belief system, theory or even perception that can not be falsified. Are you?

Even relativism can possibly be falsified, as you are trying to do.

How am I trying to falsify relativism?

It's a simple question,is relativism absolute?
symbols
#140 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:41:30 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
Where is the science to prove morality? Moral relativism cuts both ways.Anything goes.


There's such a science. It's mathematics. Relativism isn't a problem, neither is absolutism alone a necessity. Or has mathematics ever been disturbed by relativism?

Does 'anything go' in mathematics? No.

Show me how morality is mathematics. Give me a formula like a+b=it's moral to kill or c-d=peace.Define the word morality using mathematics.


First, morality is in either or both 'human' and or 'God' or 'Supernatural' and 'natural' domains. Both terms have their own limits. Hence can be described mathematically.

Next, the range of human, or God or natural behavior can be described within these limits.

Then a system of relations can be described, and different results derived. And optimal conditions described.

Another way to go about it is to remember every event is energic. Therefore going with the law of conservation of energy one can deduce different events adding up to a constant.

Where's the science or math? Aren't you just deriving meaning?
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