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The Name of Jesus Christ
Ja-Kom
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:03:13 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290
@Atiriri,
Atiririlet is how old??
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
kanduma
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:03:08 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/15/2009
Posts: 21
should children be baptized?...i can't remember which verses i heard the pastor quoting but i have always thought its a personal conviction and so my kids are not yet baptized(5years and 2months old)
life is a swinging pendulum,dont stay up too long to forget that you could come down]
akowally
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:04:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
I do not believe that children baptism is allowed anywhere in the Bible...I believe this is because of the fact that one has to repent by faith and deeds and have personal convictions from the word before baptism...

@ atiriri

The basis of the child's baptism should not be due to your marriage but only due to him developing deep convictions from the Bible and repenting...if he/she is of the right age and has fulfilled this, then I don't think anyone should refuse to baptize him...if that is still a problem, then you need to look for a good church which has the Bible strictly as the standard...most churches are lost to denominational rituals and sometimes insist on things which are not in the Bible...
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AlphDoti
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:15:40 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@Ja-kom, @akowally look at it this way. Were we to study the religion known today as "Christ"ianity, we would find that it is the interpretation of St. Paul of what he personally believed to be the religion of Jesus.

Christianity as it stands has been reduced to an interpretation of the words of Jesus within the context of what Paul taught rather than the other way around which is the way it should be.

We would expect Christianity to be the teachings of Jesus and that the words of Paul and everyone else would be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these Jesus's teachings.

However, you know that Jesus never in his lifetime mentioned an original sin.
He never asked anyone to worship him, neither did he ever claim to be part of a Trinity.
His words and actions are those of a loyal messenger of God who faithfully wihtout fault followed the commands of his Lord and only told his followers to do the same and to worship God alone (John 4:21, John 4:23, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8 ...etc.).
JeanLucPiccard
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:44:23 AM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 23
Location: Nairobi
@AlphDoti, you sound like a Jehovah's Witness or something. Your doctrine seems to be in line with them.

Basically what you're saying is that Paul's writings should not be in scripture. We're told that All Scripture is God breathed and is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3.16). You may say that is part of Paul's writings. Well, even Peter says that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

Therefore, I ask you, AlphDoti, are you saying that we should remove Paul's writings from the Bible?
Wendz
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:59:37 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
While we are at this, someone educate me here.

@ako says that children can not be baptised because one has to repent his sins before baptism which is very correct. It is argued that children would not be required to repent because they actually have not committed any sin since we only commit a sin when we transgress God's will and teachings which is also very correct... Now, if the kid is innocent, why was i taught that all of us including the kid in the womb is guilty of the original sin?

If say that the children are guilty of the original sin, so what happens if they die before they are baptised? Does it mean they are condemned to eternal fire because their parents chose not to baptise children?

What is the ideal age for a kid to be baptised assuming that an infant can not be baptised? At what age do children understand about repentance, accepting Jesus as personal saviour (am still struggling to understand what it means to be "saved") etc.
Ja-Kom
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:24:45 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290
Aplh,Paul’s credentials as an apostle were attacked, even in his own lifetime, by those who desired to lead the church into legalism and other errant ideologies. Paul defends himself from the spurious attacks of false teachers in 1 Corinthians 9; 2 Corinthians 12; and Galatians 1.
Secondly,Jesus was obviously human (He was born, grew up, ate, slept, felt pain, sadness and fear, was tempted, and finally died), it gradually became clear to His disciples that He was more than just a man.

1)He had power over sickness, death, demons and the forces of nature (e.g. Luke 8:22-56)

2)He claimed authority over divinely given laws and institutions like the Sabbath (Luke 6:5)

3)He forgave sins. (Isaiah 43:25; Luke 5:18-25)

4)He claimed to be the final Judge of mankind (Psalm 9:7,8; Matthew 25:31,32)
5)He spoke of Himself in ways that were interpreted as claims to divinity (John 10:31-33)

6)He claimed to be the embodiment of the Father (John 14:7-10)

7)He accepted the worship of others...so wasnt just a messenger as you say. (John 20:26-29)

Yet He was clearly separate from the Father to whom he prayed.
Christians have resolved this paradox by saying that Jesus is both human and divine. But they have disagreed over the exact details of how Jesus? divine and human natures are related to each other.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
Noble
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:38:06 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/19/2009
Posts: 173
Location: NAIROBI
I am just wondering. Is it right to baptize with water? John said 'I baptize you with water but the one who come after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost". There is no record that Jesus ever baptized anyone with water.

When Jesus instructed the disciples to go make disciples baptizing them in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost, did he specify that they had to use water?
AlphDoti
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:57:28 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@wendz you're asking good questions. Children are born clean. Even Jesus himself said this (Mathew 19:14, Luke 18:15-17).
See what God says: every body will carry their own cross (Deutronomy 24:16). See what Jesus says: you'll die for your own sins (John 8:21).

We only sin when we digress from God. Jesus never taught about original sin. These are man-made teachings.
If all sins are washed away on the cross, then why are we still kneeling down to pray for God's mercy?

Jesus taught about Salvation: follow the commandments. He never said wait for me to die, then you get saved. No!

@Jo-kam, @Jean, I'm not attacking Paul. Please see the truth. Paul was but only a saint. He wrote his books according to his opinion (he said this himself).
Christianity should be the teachings of Jesus and that the words of Paul and everyone else should be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these Jesus's teachings.
You should not accept where he has opposed God Himself. You should not accept where he has opposed Jesus. Jesus was sent by God.

Always remember that God reveals his laws & culture only through his prophets (Amos 3:7).
akowally
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:03:38 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
Wendz wrote:
While we are at this, someone educate me here.

@ako says that children can not be baptised because one has to repent his sins before baptism which is very correct. It is argued that children would not be required to repent because they actually have not committed any sin since we only commit a sin when we transgress God's will and teachings which is also very correct... Now, if the kid is innocent, why was i taught that all of us including the kid in the womb is guilty of the original sin?

If say that the children are guilty of the original sin, so what happens if they die before they are baptised? Does it mean they are condemned to eternal fire because their parents chose not to baptise children?

What is the ideal age for a kid to be baptised assuming that an infant can not be baptised? At what age do children understand about repentance, accepting Jesus as personal saviour (am still struggling to understand what it means to be "saved") etc.


@ Wendz

The infants have committed no sin and thus cannot be baptized. The Bible says in many places that we should obey God's commands...and it does say that we should be baptized after repentance. There is no one single person who was baptized as an infant, NONE in the entire bible. Thus rest assured if that kid dies before he knows God, God will be the one to judge but we can rest assured that his judgement will be fair. Just baptizing will not guarantee anyone heaven, whether child or adult. But like I said again God is fair.

As for the ideal age...depending on his understanding, the progression should be like this...he has studied, the bible, been convicted by it and repented of his sins by faith and by deeds and live out with the Bible as the standard...after doing this then he is eligible to be baptized. (My use of "he" refers to both sexes.

Now, about being saved...

There is nothing like being a Christian, a true Christian, a disciple and saved. Once you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, you become a Christian or a Disciple (the Bible refers to Christ's followers as Disciples more than as Christians but uses both words to mean the same thing).

Thus when you become a Christian, you live according to the Bible's commands, evangelize, pray to God, do regular confessions to God and fellow Christians (for guidance e.t.c.), and of course go to a Bible based church and have frequent fellowships with fellow Christians. And these are all from the Bible.

The Bible warns strictly against being lukewarm...you are either hot or cold. Thus when you become a Christian, according to the Bible, then you are a Disciple and are saved.









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