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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muriel I've remembered my reply as regards Daniel. Now you can tell me what you didn't know. I would like to know. He was a prophet. He prophesied some things that historians tell us indeed happened exactly as he foretold them. Are you still interested in knowing what he foretold and what happened? Very well. So you agree that, a prophesy when told, and events happens, similar to what was prophesized, even if not mentioned by name, as long as the events match what was pre-told, then that prophesy has passed, right? I agree with this too. If you agree that is how you confirm prophesy, then we can continue, to tell me what happened. If there is another way to confirm prophesy, then define it first before you proceed. And laughing by @lonest! does not help anything, it's called sheepish laugh, because the laugh is over nothing. Be mature and table your issues. No need to laugh at your own jokes.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muriel I've remembered my reply as regards Daniel. Now you can tell me what you didn't know. I would like to know. He was a prophet. He prophesied some things that historians tell us indeed happened exactly as he foretold them. Are you still interested in knowing what he foretold and what happened? Very well. So you agree that, a prophesy when told, and events happens, similar to what was prophesized, even if not mentioned by name, as long as the events match what was pre-told, then that prophesy has passed, right? I agree with this too. If you agree that is how you confirm prophesy, then we can continue, to tell me what happened. If there is another way to confirm prophesy, then define it first before you proceed. And laughing by @lonest! does not help anything, it's called sheepish laugh, because the laugh is over nothing. Be mature and table your issues. No need to laugh at your own jokes. Alright. (lol). We are on the same page. I am not very comfortable with "similar" - thats too broad and vague. Raise the bar, make it more stringent. We don't want rumors and conjecture, speculation, deflection, twists and turns do we? So I agree that a prophecy when told and events happen exactly to what was pre-told, even if not mentioned by name then the prophecy is true and we can expect whatever that has not yet passed in the prophecy (if there is any) to happen exactly as was prophesized. I do not think there is any other way to define so we can continue. I will start in my next post.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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@lonest! mia!!!
@muriel, where is your next post?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muriel I've remembered my reply as regards Daniel. Now you can tell me what you didn't know. I would like to know. He was a prophet. He prophesied some things that historians tell us indeed happened exactly as he foretold them. Are you still interested in knowing what he foretold and what happened? Very well. So you agree that, a prophesy when told, and events happens, similar to what was prophesized, even if not mentioned by name, as long as the events match what was pre-told, then that prophesy has passed, right? I agree with this too. If you agree that is how you confirm prophesy, then we can continue, to tell me what happened. If there is another way to confirm prophesy, then define it first before you proceed. And laughing by @lonest! does not help anything, it's called sheepish laugh, because the laugh is over nothing. Be mature and table your issues. No need to laugh at your own jokes. Alright. (lol). We are on the same page. I am not very comfortable with "similar" - thats too broad and vague. Raise the bar, make it more stringent. We don't want rumors and conjecture, speculation, deflection, twists and turns do we? So I agree that a prophecy when told and events happen exactly to what was pre-told, even if not mentioned by name then the prophecy is true and we can expect whatever that has not yet passed in the prophecy (if there is any) to happen exactly as was prophesized. I do not think there is any other way to define so we can continue. I will start in my next post @muriel, I think your definition is not bad, we agree. I will give an example to elaborate my definition. You see there are thousands of prophesies about the coming of Jesus (pbuh) in the old testament. And we Muslims don't dispute regarding Jesus (pbuh), because the whole Muslim-world accepted him without the testimony of Biblical prophesy. Muslims have accepted Jesus (pbuh) on the authority of Muhammad (pbuh) alone, there are in the world today over 1.5 billion followers of Muhammad (pbuh) who love, respect and revere this great messenger of God - Jesus Christ (pbuh) without having any Christian to convince them by means of Biblical. So the example is where there is not even a single prophesy where Jesus is mentioned by name!!!! Remember the title "Messiah" translated as "Christ" is not a name but a title. There is not a single verse where it says the Messiah will be "Jesus", and his mother's name will be "Mary", and his supposed father will be "Joseph the carpenter", that he will be born in the reign of "Herod" etc No! There is no such details. Then how do we conclude that the thousand prophesies refer to Jesus (pbuh)? So my best definition of prophesy would be: " Prophesies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that things actually comes to pass, we see clearly in these prophesies the fulfillment of what had been predicted in the past". We deduce, we reason, we put two and two together to get four. Right? Now let's see your post...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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pole kaka doti. Just left jobo. Let's continue tomorrow au ni leo?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Excellent, Alphdoti.
But I will not be comparing Qur'an here. Lolest, is well capable of handling that. (And I urge you not to ignore him as you seem to be doing - you must continue your dialogue!)
Now that you have given me the usukani , I will proceed mdogo mdogo. First the simple then the more detailed ones. In broad strokes I start my painting.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Daniel was a captive when Babylonians from around present day Iraq (where Guru and ISIS are currently holed up, holla holla sister!) overran their country in conquests. While captive, God gave him visions about kingdoms of the known world (from their point of view) starting from his time to the end of the world.
The first vision (and prophecy) was a statue with a head of gold, bust of silver, hips of brass, legs of iron and feet of iron with clay. Then a stone, without human intervention, came and hit the statue at the feet and broke it all to pieces. Then the stone grew and covered the whole earth.
How he interpreted: (a) Head of gold - this was Babylon - this is the first kingdom and is past.
(b) Bust of silver - this was the Medes and the Persians who conquered Babylon - this is the second kingdom and is also past.
(c) Hips of brass - this was the Greeks who conquered the Medes and Persians - this is the third kingdom and is also past.
(d) Legs of iron - this was the Romans who conquered the Greeks - this is the fourth kingdom and also past.
(e) Feet of iron with clay - this is a continuation of the fourth and is still the Romans (who are now mixed with something) who have succeeded the initial Romans who conquered the Greeks. This is the last kingdom in the statue.
(f) The stone without human intervention hitting the statue at the feet of iron with clay will be God destroying this last kingdom of the world (the feet of iron with clay, the Romans mixed with something) and setting up his own.
If the sequence of the kingdoms (especially the past ones) is wrong please say it now.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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@muriel where did I ignore @lonest? Am I not the one who asked you to ask him to respond? Now you're turning around and lying to pretend as if I'm the one who is not responding? What trick is this you are trying About the four world powers, is this still about adulteration, changing, and additions in the scriptures as we have seen in the Bible by the Bible Scholars, and church allowing man-made laws to creep into the church doctrine? I want to continue talking with @lonest! Anyway, about the four world powers, you are using the Bible and Daniel's vision, all these can be discussed, and I guess @guru is well versed about these trends. As for me, I guess if we say these Powers correspond to the four parts of the beast, then we can assume your enumerations matches. I'm here to learn.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Lolest! wrote:pole kaka doti. Just left jobo. Let's continue tomorrow au ni leo? @lonest! I know the gap is becoming smaller as we both become tolerant, despite your competing attitude. You're still depicting Islam in a manner where you end up saying: "Muhammad the imposter, the dreamer, the epileptic", not knowing he was even mentioned in the Bible itself, by name But deep down in your heart, you shiver in hearing and seeing Muslims worship they way they do, because the Muslims worship exactly the way all Prophets, even Israelites prophets worshiped. including Jesus (pbuh) I don't blame you, I know you didn't know about some things. You've not researched properly the two major religions. What you know about Islam is what you heard or seen on TV, or from your pastors, or from Internet etc. If only you could sit and read by yourself the basic books of these religions
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:Lolest! wrote:pole kaka doti. Just left jobo. Let's continue tomorrow au ni leo? @lonest! I know the gap is becoming smaller as we both become tolerant, despite your competing attitude. You're still depicting Islam in a manner where you end up saying: "Muhammad the imposter, the dreamer, the epileptic", not knowing he was even mentioned in the Bible itself, by name But deep down in your heart, you shiver in hearing and seeing Muslims worship they way they do, because the Muslims worship exactly the way all Prophets, even Israelites prophets worshiped. including Jesus (pbuh) I don't blame you, I know you didn't know about some things. You've not researched properly the two major religions. What you know about Islam is what you heard or seen on TV, or from your pastors, or from Internet etc. If only you could sit and read by yourself the basic books of these religions Do Muslims observe the Sabbath? Why does Islam allow the eating of camels while the Torah forbids it? Which Bible mentions Muhammad and how has it become a Muslim issue free from corruption?
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