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Carbacid Investments AGM
Scubidu
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:34:49 AM
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Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Top Five Shareholders of Carbacid Investment

Rasimu Limited 22.61%
Mrs A Patel 15.00%
Mr B C Patel 9.86%
Leverton Limited 9.36%
Kivuli Limited 5.83%
Others 37.34%

Not sure if this has been discussed in some previous post, but Carbacid AGM is today, and I was unable to attend.

Can someone shed some light on the role Centum wants to play in Carbacid wrt its control of the board?
And why they used a subsidiary called Rasimu Limited to effect the Carbacid buyout?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wondergirl
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:49:28 AM
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Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 312
Mukiha, Scubidu,
When is the right time for me to buy Carbacid Shares? I'm very interested in them.
VituVingiSana
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 11:47:13 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,223
Location: Nairobi
Perhaps we shud ask at Centum's AGM... good question...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
egitau
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:28:11 PM
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Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 25
Crediting of the bonus shares was done today and it maintained the price above 100 bob could be a goodtime to get in.As for Centum=Rasimu Ltd hapo kuna rough game.
Knowledge Is Power But Action Get Things Done
Scubidu
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:06:30 PM
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Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@wondergirl. I think the buy decision shud depend on the answers to the above questions.

@egitau. Can you estimate how much Centum would make after you take into account the bonus? in Capital gains? What price did they buy the over 2.56 million shares at and what is there value now.

What if Rasimu Limited is a short term vehicle to keep things off the books...and does that make sense? This year Carbacid has targeted capex spend of over 115 million for expansion, so no special dividend or huge dividend growth expected. Likely capex will be funded internally cos they have the cashflow (over 300 mn) to do so. So is Centum in it for the fair value adjustment?

Kenya National Properties is a Centum 100% sub to manage properties for rent...what's Rasimu's function?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
egitau
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2009 3:31:49 PM
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Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 25
@scubidu
It make sense if Rasimu=100% Centum could be it's there acquation function.
Carbacid on the other hand have enough cash to do there expansion since there market is growing last year there was a 43% jump in sales and 40% growth in profits.Centum on the other hand are smiling all the way to the bank after cashing in on Ksh 24.33 M In final and special dividend and unrealised capital gains of over Ksh 1.1B
Anyway with all said there are still the sole produces of CO2 guys are still drinking alot of carbonited stuff.Sodas,beers etc
Knowledge Is Power But Action Get Things Done
Scubidu
#7 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2009 5:51:09 AM
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Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
So it boils down to who ordered the bonus with a side order of special dividends?

The decision to bring Centum on-board now seems wrong-headed when the acquisition was effected through an undefined entity and where Centum doesn't know much about the CO2 business (unless you count their soft-drink investment, Coca Cola, hummm...).

Centum's operations are cashflow negative surviving on expensive bank borrowings, besides cashflow-rich Carbacid needs no venture capital, but after all this time could any BOC offer now, match the goodies the current carb shareholders are enjoying? No! Maybe that's the message we shud be getting-massive returns now at the expense of future expansion (current gains for future pains).

@egitau it'll be interesting to know what Centum paid to see the extent of the windfall (if any), but if carbs price stays unchanged today, the investment shud def beef up 2010 earnings (as well as the CFA-smart CIO xmas bonus).
Final verdict: Centum has raided carbs revenue reserves, binged on its cashflows and the Centum sub has laid no clear plans as to its future role.

@wondergirl but ive not answered your question, but if you think Centum is underweight, then buy, praying those carbs add some fat. As for Carb, where there was a 10.0% dividend yield at Kshs100.00, b4 the bonus, there's now only a 3.3% yield. You cool with that? If not, capital gains are still an option, especially if shareholders squeezes supply to favour of higher bids (prices).
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
VituVingiSana
#8 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2009 7:59:05 AM
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Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,223
Location: Nairobi
Centum does not have much heft at Carbacid even with 22% since the Patel guy (& his wife) also control the same %.

I think Centum will get a director on board though matiba was locked out BUT that was matiba's fault. He would have raided the firm for his failing ventures.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Scubidu
#9 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2009 9:27:07 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Aaahh well, I dramatized a lot in the previous post. For such a sizable stake, it would be nice for Centum to at least add some fresh ideas or capital into the mix. BC Patel seems to own a lot of listed companies in Kenya...would he qualify as Kenya's Warren Buffet?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wondergirl
#10 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2009 6:13:06 PM
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Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 312
Thanks alot Scubby, what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. Yes I might get in Cabs for some capital gain , however I'm not in a hurry. I have noticed post split, or post bonus shares tend to really depreciate in value:read E.A Cables BBk, Equity and stay down for a loong time, so nita "Chill" before rushing in to buy them.
the deal
#11 Posted : Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:47:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
I'm 22 and i need 2% of Carbacid but i will wait for it until it hits 50 bob then i will go for the kill...in this bearish market patience pays.
Juojo
#12 Posted : Monday, December 14, 2009 7:11:43 AM
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Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 41
What centum did about the Rasimu deal was just a safe buy. As a bright investor you dont just buy as yourself but also use another company to hold onto a new investment, 'not putting your eggs in 1 basket , incase of any problems! The separate entity principle.

Then the Carb deal is inline with their main industry,BEVERAGE!! by owning all the cocacola bottlers, its also wise to buy the sole supplier of CO2. That was quite bright.People have to take SODA!
Happiness is not the absence of problems, It's the ability to deal with them
VituVingiSana
#13 Posted : Monday, December 14, 2009 9:19:55 AM
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Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,223
Location: Nairobi
Juojo - What advantage does Centum have owning Carbacid shares under Rasimu?

As an ORDINARY shareholder, Centum faces no risk (except loss of its 'value') if Carbacid makes losses. Creditors of Carbacid cannot force ORDINARY shareholders of Carbacid to pay anything extra...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Juojo
#14 Posted : Monday, December 14, 2009 12:24:29 PM
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Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 41
Vituvingi- Its not even about the the Carb deal but the overall benefits associated with using a subsidiary in a venture.
Certain developments in a company's lifecycle can trigger the need for a subsidiary, such as the launch of a new venture with different risk characteristics than the company’s existing line of business(CO2 industry is quite new to them) or the opening of operations in a new region or foreign country. Other times, companies need to form subsidiaries to facilitate the potential sale of part of the company.This will also shield itself from possible financial fallout from its new venture and make it easier and faster to acquire or dispose any of the investments held by the subsidiary.


FROM AN ACCOUNTING PERSPECTIVE, creating a subsidiary makes sense because it allows companies to enjoy substantial tax benefits (not so sure) and creditor protections.

But a business doesn’t have to be involved in a risky operation to justify the creation of a new subsidiary. Any time you’re starting a new venture, there’s always risk of loss .You want to protect the profitable part of the business from the losses of the new business you are starting, and by putting the new business into a separate subsidiary, you can do that.So I think Centum is just prudent and cautious n also trying to diversify risk. Kuddos.

Given the benefits associated with forming subsidiaries, it’s not surprising that virtually all sizable companies use them. It’s also not surprising that companies sometimes misuse them.( eg the case of the NewYork Taxi Cabs in US)


Happiness is not the absence of problems, It's the ability to deal with them
VituVingiSana
#15 Posted : Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:50:41 AM
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Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,223
Location: Nairobi
@juojo - The only 'plus' I see is if Centum decides to sell 'Rasimu' as a company to BOC.

If you own shares directly in a firm (Centum owning shares in Carbacid) then you need CMA permission for a 'big' move. You can always sell the entity (Rasimu) to someone else without triggering CMA's need to look at the deal since the shareholder has not changed but the shareholder's shareholders have changed...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Scubidu
#16 Posted : Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:13:33 AM
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Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@VVS Isn't that grossly unethical? Will BOC be paying the market price?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
VituVingiSana
#17 Posted : Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:12:04 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,223
Location: Nairobi
The issue is NOT the ethics of BOC but the problem they face/d with the regulators due to lack of proper guidelines.

If the seller (Centum) wishes to sell Rasimu to BOC... then why is BOC at fault?
Price: That can be negotiated. Market price is a guide.

Centum could sell on the market (incurs brokerage costs as well as price discovery issues) or sell Rasimu in one piece to a buyer.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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