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PCUSA (elder brother to PCEA) To Allow Gay Marriages
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:
1.Thank you for the link to the hadiths.We've established your two Islamic sources.I assume no other sources have been approved for use?
2.You didn't answer why you use KJV.Why and when is it appropriate or inappropriate for use? Also,how do you distinguish what is from God and what is not without referencing Islamic sources?
3.Where did @guru respond to me? Care to explain what she said and where it came from.Where is @guru or Islam getting the understanding of the beast from and what does it say?
1. There are two Islamic sources; the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths (Sahih Bukhari). 2. Why I use KJV? I use it to respond to any Christian issue. I happen to own a copy of KJV. When is it appropriate? In the Bible there are three words: a) the word of God, (b) the word of prophet of God, and (c) the word of historian. 3. Let us wait for @guru to respond about the issue of beast. I'm handling too many of you already here  You use it to respond to Christian issues.So the word of God in the bible is Christian? What is the word of God and His prophets in the bible and how did you come to that conclusion(like I had asked without using Islamic sources)? You're handling to many of us?Hmmmm. Because I'm using the Qur'an as standard. You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the last revealed Book which has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its content have been guaranteed by God Almighty in surah 2:2 " This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt...". On the contrary, all the other holy books (Torah, Psalms, Gospel etc) have been adulterated in the form of additions, deletions, or alterations from the original, by the 'hidden' forces as told by @Kamundu. You're quoting the Qur'an as evidence for the legitimacy of the Qur'an?Ok.What you also consider to be the word of God in the Bible and its interpretation is again only reinforced by the Qur'an and Hadiths without producing the original scripture.In essence it's a proposal of what should be considered scripture and how it should interpreted while admitting you can't produce the evidence to back up your claims. I'm curious,did Jesus recognize previous scriptures and prophets excluding the Torah and Psalms? @symbols your questions are not clear. Which ones?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote: You see the church continuously carrying out additions, deletions, and alterations of the Bible to suit what they want. Which begs the question: is the Bible God's word? Our discussion suggests that the same can be said of Islam and the Qur'an. Prove. Post 113Islam came after Judaism and Christianity with claims and interpretations about them it couldn't back up.The burden of proof lies with you.The only argument you can put across is Islam is true because Islam says it is.How different is that from any denomination coming up and saying the same thing? You said the same can be said about Qur'an. So I ask you to prove it. When I claim something, I prove it. You took me to post #113, that does not talk about the Qur'an. It talks about the Bible. Prove the Qur'an is not God's word. It challenges you about this already. Quran Sura 4:82 says: " If [Quran] had been from other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." This is a challenge to you symbol, and other skeptics. So be my guest
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote: You see the church continuously carrying out additions, deletions, and alterations of the Bible to suit what they want. Which begs the question: is the Bible God's word? Our discussion suggests that the same can be said of Islam and the Qur'an. Prove. Post 113Islam came after Judaism and Christianity with claims and interpretations about them it couldn't back up.The burden of proof lies with you.The only argument you can put across is Islam is true because Islam says it is.How different is that from any denomination coming up and saying the same thing? You said the same can be said about Qur'an. So I ask you to prove it. When I claim something, I prove it. You took me to post #113, that does not talk about the Qur'an. It talks about the Bible. Prove the Qur'an is not God's word. It challenges you about this already. Quran Sura 4:82 says: " If [Quran] had been from other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." This is a challenge to you symbol, and other skeptics. So be my guest Are you're trying to turn the tables or are you simply jumping the gun? It is you who is claiming the Qur'an is the word of God and consistent with previous scriptures.Are you saying the message of the Bible and the message of the Qur'an are the same? It is you who has to prove the Qur'an is the word of God and the way to interpret scripture but what you're doing is quoting the Qur'an.Where is the evidence for your claims?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Friends, not all religions have a single Scripture that can be referred to. Not all religions are Abrahamic. Future religions may not be Abrahamic, and may not even need a single referent of Scripture.
@Muriel, to say God makes something holy, isn't saying anything meaningful. Why? God is a word, and words as far as we can tell are in the human domain.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:
@muriel, you can try this. This challenge has not been given today, it was given 1400 ago. "No doubt We have sent down the Qur'an and surely We will guard it (from corruption)" Quran 15:19.
This verse is a challenge to mankind. It is cleat=r fact that more than 1400 years have passed and not a single word of this Qur'an has been changed, even though disbelievers tried their utmost to change it, but they failed miserably in their efforts.
SO be our guest!
On the contrary, all the other books (Torah, Psalms, Gospel etc) have been changed.
Alphdoti says that all Qur'ans in the world are exactly the same, and that it is perfectly preserved for 1400 years and free from any variation. He says this as a way of showing that the Qur'an is superior to the Bible. He is merely repeating what he has read and heard from his leaders: Quote:No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, p. 4) But is it true? I have been invited in and I will accept the invitation.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
@muriel, you can try this. This challenge has not been given today, it was given 1400 ago. "No doubt We have sent down the Qur'an and surely We will guard it (from corruption)" Quran 15:19.
This verse is a challenge to mankind. It is cleat=r fact that more than 1400 years have passed and not a single word of this Qur'an has been changed, even though disbelievers tried their utmost to change it, but they failed miserably in their efforts.
SO be our guest!
On the contrary, all the other books (Torah, Psalms, Gospel etc) have been changed.
Alphdoti says that all Qur'ans in the world are exactly the same, and that it is perfectly preserved for 1400 years and free from any variation. He says this as a way of showing that the Qur'an is superior to the Bible. He is merely repeating what he has read and heard from his leaders: Quote:No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, p. 4) But is it true? I have been invited in and I will accept the invitation. A book that can't change is worthless when change is the only constant we have as humans.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:kysse wrote:AlphDoti wrote:kysse wrote:uuuuuuwi still on this?
Where's hambuglar to come and scatter ye all? @kysse scatter? Why does talking about God stuff pierce your heart? Many ladies have fear for God...  Yes scatter scatter you kabisa. Fear of God, wacha tu. See you cannot can never christians,neither can they convince you,so you are just writing a book...
You see our plea is "Say O people, Christians and Jews. Come to common terms as between us and you. That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that erect not, from ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.) Quran 53:64
@kysse thank you for highlighting that. It gives emphasize. Many people shy away from studying their scripture. Many Christians do not understand their Bible, let alone understand the Quran. I'm sure a lot of good could be achieved if Muslims and Christians would improve their knowledge of both Bible and Quran. Alphdoti, I agree with you. Many people shy away from studying their scripture, indeed many christians do not understand their bible. Some even think it is a book to be had not necessarily to be read. That is an honest assessment. I also agree that a lot of good could be achieved if muslims and christians would improve their knwledge of both bible and koran. So I will examine and see if the koran has only "one version" for surely, I also understand the koran.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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maybe it has remained unchanged for 1400 years... who says the first one written was actually the 'right' thing? for 1400 years they may have been reading the unchanged version of the 'wrong' thing. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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With me is two Qur'ans: (a) the Qur'an according to Imam Haf (b) the Qur'an according to Imam Warsh If I open both sura 21:4, Quote:The Prophet said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." One will get different meanings if one reads in Arabic. The English translation has lost the nuance. In Imam Warsh (Abu Sa'eed 'Uthmaan bin Sa'eed Al-Misriyy, may Allah be merciful to him) version it is Allah giving the command to say "My lord knows,,," while in Imam Haf it is the prophet who just says "My lord knows,,,". Does a small matter as "He said" and "Say" make a difference? Whats the big deal? For that we can but just look at the christians and how the small matters of commas and so on have wrecked chaos in the religion. The scale of chaos in christianity may be larger but because of these very points (among others) Islam - with its mirage of a singular Qur'an - has not escaped the plague of sects and interpretations. Therein, with the proof of the pudding being in the eating, Allah has been disobeyed and the Qur'an has been corrupted. Different interpretations and sects that exist illustrate the differences of the Qur'ans they each base themselves on. And my interpretation is valid, save personal dislike someone can have for me, my interpretation cannot be made inferior to another.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote: You see the church continuously carrying out additions, deletions, and alterations of the Bible to suit what they want. Which begs the question: is the Bible God's word? Our discussion suggests that the same can be said of Islam and the Qur'an. Prove. Post 113Islam came after Judaism and Christianity with claims and interpretations about them it couldn't back up.The burden of proof lies with you.The only argument you can put across is Islam is true because Islam says it is.How different is that from any denomination coming up and saying the same thing? You said the same can be said about Qur'an. So I ask you to prove it. When I claim something, I prove it. You took me to post #113, that does not talk about the Qur'an. It talks about the Bible. Prove the Qur'an is not God's word. It challenges you about this already. Quran Sura 4:82 says: " If [Quran] had been from other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." This is a challenge to you symbol, and other skeptics. So be my guest Are you're trying to turn the tables or are you simply jumping the gun? It is you who is claiming the Qur'an is the word of God and consistent with previous scriptures.Are you saying the message of the Bible and the message of the Qur'an are the same? It is you who has to prove the Qur'an is the word of God and the way to interpret scripture but what you're doing is quoting the Qur'an.Where is the evidence for your claims? @symbol 1. all prophets from Adam to Muhammad (pbut) were sent with the same message; that is total submission of mankind to Allah (Almighty God). This submission in Arabic is called Islam. 2. Unlike Judaism & Christianity, this name Islam has been given by God. 3. The first Muslim on earth was not Muhammad but Abraham whi submitted totally to God 4. The Quran has no doubt in it. This is achallengr to all mankind, including you and other skeptics. If it were not from the Creator, there would have been found many contradictions 5. The Quran is free of errors, that is prove that it came from Creator Himself 6. Islam is perfect religion. "This day i have perfected your religiin for you, complete my favour uoon you, and have chisen for you Islam as yiur religion" Quran 5:3 7. islam is religion of truth. "Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Lo! Falsehood was destined to vanish" Quran 17:81 8. Islam teaches pure nature. No child is born except in state of purity, everybody is born in submission to God I.e. Islam, this is the nature if every child born. The parents or community convert him to Judaism, Christianity, or other faiths or Atheism. As an animal produces a perfect young animal; do you see any part of its body amputated? "...the nature of Allah, in which He created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not" Quran 30:30 8. Muslims live according to the Quran
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