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PCUSA (elder brother to PCEA) To Allow Gay Marriages
symbols
#111 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:59:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:

1.Thank you for the link to the hadiths.We've established your two Islamic sources.I assume no other sources have been approved for use?

2.You didn't answer why you use KJV.Why and when is it appropriate or inappropriate for use? Also,how do you distinguish what is from God and what is not without referencing Islamic sources?

3.Where did @guru respond to me? Care to explain what she said and where it came from.Where is @guru or Islam getting the understanding of the beast from and what does it say?

1. There are two Islamic sources; the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths (Sahih Bukhari).

2. Why I use KJV? I use it to respond to any Christian issue. I happen to own a copy of KJV. When is it appropriate? In the Bible there are three words: a) the word of God, (b) the word of prophet of God, and (c) the word of historian.

3. Let us wait for @guru to respond about the issue of beast. I'm handling too many of you already here smile

You use it to respond to Christian issues.So the word of God in the bible is Christian?What is the word of God and His prophets in the bible and how did you come to that conclusion(like I had asked without using Islamic sources)?

You're handling to many of us?Hmmmm.

Because I'm using the Qur'an as standard. You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the last revealed Book which has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its content have been guaranteed by God Almighty in surah 2:2 "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt...". On the contrary, all the other holy books (Torah, Psalms, Gospel etc) have been adulterated in the form of additions, deletions, or alterations from the original, by the 'hidden' forces as told by @Kamundu.

You're quoting the Qur'an as evidence for the legitimacy of the Qur'an?Ok.What you also consider to be the word of God in the Bible and its interpretation is again only reinforced by the Qur'an and Hadiths without producing the original scripture.In essence it's a proposal of what should be considered scripture and how it should interpreted while admitting you can't produce the evidence to back up your claims.

I'm curious,did Jesus recognize previous scriptures and prophets excluding the Torah and Psalms?

It is clear that more than 1400 years have passed and not a single word of the Qur'an has been changed, although disbelievers tried their best to change it, but they failed.

Muslims and Christians are close to one another as Quran says Surah 8:82:
"...And you'll find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. This is because there are among them priest and monks (i.e. persons entirely devoted to the service of God, as the Muslims), and because they are not proud@

Some Christian denominations are making tremendous progress now by acknowledging for the first time in history that Muhammad (pbuh) descended from Ishmael through his second son Kedar.

In Davis Dictionary of the Bible, 1980, sponsored by the Board of Christian Education in USA writes under Kedar
"... A tribe descended from Ishmael (Gen 25:13)... The people of Kedar, from their tribe Muhammad ultimately arose@

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia quotes the following from A.S Fulton:
"...Of the Ishmaelites tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important... It is through Kedar that Muslim geneaologies trace the descent of Muhammad from Ishmael"


1400 years doesn't mean it's right.It still doesn't address what I have said.

You've also acknowledged the work of a Christian denomination that agrees with your version of Muhammad while on this very thread you're speaking about 'forces'.Why do you assume they are legitimate and why should 'we'?

Now you're quoting a bible dictionary,which isn't the KJV and you're yet to produce the word of God.Is this an attempt to turn it into a Christian issue and/or sneak in Muhammad?At what point is an encyclopedia an Islamic Source?

Diversions?


Muriel
#112 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:04:08 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

@muriel, stop laughing and engage intelligently. Go back to issues we have raised and comment. There is one up there waiting for you.

Sorry, dear Alphdoti for laughing hysterically

You must mean this:
Quote:
Let me ask you two questions:
1. Are sure that the Bible is holy?
2. Does "holy" means it's God's Word and that the Bible is free from error?

1. The bible being "holy"
Holiness is not dependent on man and his actions or inactions. Yaani, man is not the one to make something "holy". And what God has made "holy", or in my lingo "holyrized", man cannot "unholyrize".

2. Picture this scenario - it is not real just for illustration purposes
Suppose God inspired someone (lets call her Ann) to write, say, "This pen should not be uncapped." then in my wisdom I, Muriel, reprint that particular text (and circulate it widely) but I add "for a long time" such that the statement now reads "This pen should not be uncapped for a long time." Now my printout is all over the world and someone in Kenya, (lets call him Alphdoti) starts saying that God did not inspire Ann, what Ann wrote was wrong and such like things.

@muriel so what is holiness dependent on?

And what is your point in your example where Ann is given Book by God. God tells her xyz. But she writes uvwxyz?


Laugh
Laugh
Laugh

You see! What I have been saying all along!!! Fallacies galore!

Holiness is dependent on God. He is the one who makes something holy.

God tells Ann to write xyz and she writes xyz. I am the one who adds uvw. Yet here you are accusing her of of writing uvwxyz!! I am the one who adds uvw. Me! Me! Me! Not Ann!

1. God tells Ann to write xyz
2. Ann writes xyz
3. I, Muriel, adds uvw.
4. Leave God alone
5. Leave Ann alone she wrote the correct thing.
6. Any discrepancy in the text ask me, the culprit. I am the one who added changed.

Have you seen?

Please define "holy".


First of all have you seen? Answer me first before you ask your questions.

Today I can take the koran and take my time to make emendations here and there within it and then convince some pals of mine that that is the real deal koran. They can believe me and my printout can have worldwide circulation.

I can even type the word 'Holy' on the cover so that it reads 'Holy Koran'.

Have you seen?


Perhaps I should add that lets say maybe the writer of this Koran was inspired by God to write out these things but me the 'editor' am not.

I'm just sitting in the office with my computer editing, changing, adjusting, deleting, adding, accentuating, suppressing, then I print out a 'holy koran'. Lets say I'm Mohammed ,,,,

Have you seen?
symbols
#113 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 6:01:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
symbols wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:

1.Thank you for the link to the hadiths.We've established your two Islamic sources.I assume no other sources have been approved for use?

2.You didn't answer why you use KJV.Why and when is it appropriate or inappropriate for use? Also,how do you distinguish what is from God and what is not without referencing Islamic sources?

3.Where did @guru respond to me? Care to explain what she said and where it came from.Where is @guru or Islam getting the understanding of the beast from and what does it say?

1. There are two Islamic sources; the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths (Sahih Bukhari).

2. Why I use KJV? I use it to respond to any Christian issue. I happen to own a copy of KJV. When is it appropriate? In the Bible there are three words: a) the word of God, (b) the word of prophet of God, and (c) the word of historian.

3. Let us wait for @guru to respond about the issue of beast. I'm handling too many of you already here smile

You use it to respond to Christian issues.So the word of God in the bible is Christian?What is the word of God and His prophets in the bible and how did you come to that conclusion(like I had asked without using Islamic sources)?

You're handling to many of us?Hmmmm.

Because I'm using the Qur'an as standard. You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the last revealed Book which has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its content have been guaranteed by God Almighty in surah 2:2 "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt...". On the contrary, all the other holy books (Torah, Psalms, Gospel etc) have been adulterated in the form of additions, deletions, or alterations from the original, by the 'hidden' forces as told by @Kamundu.

You're quoting the Qur'an as evidence for the legitimacy of the Qur'an?Ok.What you also consider to be the word of God in the Bible and its interpretation is again only reinforced by the Qur'an and Hadiths without producing the original scripture.In essence it's a proposal of what should be considered scripture and how it should interpreted while admitting you can't produce the evidence to back up your claims.

I'm curious,did Jesus recognize previous scriptures and prophets excluding the Torah and Psalms?


AlphDoti wrote:
You see the church continuously carrying out additions, deletions, and alterations of the Bible to suit what they want. Which begs the question: is the Bible God's word?


Our discussion suggests that the same can be said of Islam and the Qur'an.
Lolest!
#114 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 6:43:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
AlphDoti wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
BTW, which prophecy is this that Adam made? Never seen him as a prophet!

Lonest! Adam (peace be upon him) was a prophet. How?

Upon completion of the process of Creation, and after God created Adam, He taught Adam the names of all things. Things great and trivial, every material and every instrument and their usefulness. The Quran tells us that after that, God examined the angels by asking them about names of the things, and the angels admitted ignorance of them. Quran tells us that angels only know what God has taught them.

So we realize that the first human was not an ignorant creature. He didn't acquire knowledge gradually. He was not a pagan who came to know source of creation later. He was not a dumb creation who learned language out of his own evolutionary faculties. He didn't lead a life of beast and evolved civilization later. Rather he was provided by faculty of thought and speech, freedom of choice. Was taught to know creator from start. And was created in best of forms. Creator spoke to him, and he obeyed the designer or creator.

So, those who receive Divine revelation from God, is an prophet.

I hope you can now see Adam as was a prophet?

No
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
kamundu
#115 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:10:24 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/9/2011
Posts: 786
Location: Mashinani
@ Alphadoti,,,,herebelow are my reasons that the bible is a true record
Peace in our Homeland.
kamundu
#116 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:15:49 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/9/2011
Posts: 786
Location: Mashinani
EVIDENCE THAT THE BIBLE IS TRUE
MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE: There are way more copies of the biblical manuscripts, with remarkable consistency between them, than there are for any of the classics like Plato, Aristotle and Socrates.  There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.  Any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1946 to 1956, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered, they have been carbon dated to 400 BC. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admitted that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE:  Again and again archaeological discoveries have verified the accuracy of the historical and cultural references in the Bible.  The more they dig, the more it confirms the Bible.  It is important to note that Near Eastern archaeology has demonstrated the historical and geographical reliability of the Bible in many important areas. For example, Daniel mentions Belshazzar as the last King of Babylon, the empire which fell in 539 BC. Greek historians who wrote several hundred years later did not mention him but said that Nabonidus was the last king. "Aha" said the critics who did not want Daniel's prophecies to be genuine and that the bible was a fictional story....however they spoke too soon. Archeologists later unearthed an ancient babylonian tablet that described Belshezazzar as the son of Nabonidus! There exists archeological evidence of records of the captivity of the Jews in Babylon, to the violent conquest of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites, to  evidence supporting the stories in Genesis, Exodus and almost all the books in the old testament. This evidence is corroborated in many cases by scientific carbon dating.

EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS: The Bible was written by people who witnessed the events it describes; many were persecuted or martyred but never changed their story.  Would you die for something you knew was untrue? “It is no moderate approbation of Scripture that it has been sealed by the blood of so many witnesses, especially when we reflect that they died to render testimony to the faith …with a firm and constant, yet sober, zeal toward God.

CORROBORATING ACCOUNTS: There are plenty of references in non-biblical sources to the events described in the Bible. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37 AD, “provide(s) indispensable background material for the student of…New Testament history. In them, we meet many figures well known to us from the New Testament. Some of his writings provide direct commentary on New Testament references.” 

LITERARY CONSISTENCY:  The Bible contains 66 books written over 1,500 years by 40 different writers but it tells one "big story" of God's plan of salvation that culminated in Jesus Christ.  You can't even pass a secret around a circle of 12 people and get the same message at the end. There  is indeed a wide variety of human authors and themes (in the Bible). Yet behind these…there lies a single divine author with a single unifying theme.

PROPHETIC CONSISTENCY: There are over 300 specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.  “The very dimension of the sheer fulfillment of prophecy of the Old Testament Scriptures should be enough to convince anyone that we are dealing with a supernatural piece of literature….God has himself planted within the scriptures an internal consistency that bears witness that this is his Word. The Bible correctly predicted the destruction of Babylon, the rise and fall of the Medo-Persian empire, the rise of the Greek empire ( Alexander the great), the Roman empire, the destruction of Jerusalem, Christs birth and cruxifiction etc etc...

CHANGED LIVES: masses of Christians down through the ages have shown us, the Bible is the most reliable place to turn for finding the key to a life of love andgood works.There have been numerous stories of people from other religions  ( hindus, muslims) who have come to know Jesus through reading the bible alone by themselves, people whohave literally been saved from crime and immorality through the influence of the bible...
Peace in our Homeland.
kysse
#117 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:38:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth
uuuuuuwi still on this?

Where's hambuglar to come and scatter ye all?
AlphDoti
#118 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:39:25 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Muriel wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

@muriel, stop laughing and engage intelligently. Go back to issues we have raised and comment. There is one up there waiting for you.

Sorry, dear Alphdoti for laughing hysterically

You must mean this:
Quote:
Let me ask you two questions:
1. Are sure that the Bible is holy?
2. Does "holy" means it's God's Word and that the Bible is free from error?

1. The bible being "holy"
Holiness is not dependent on man and his actions or inactions. Yaani, man is not the one to make something "holy". And what God has made "holy", or in my lingo "holyrized", man cannot "unholyrize".

2. Picture this scenario - it is not real just for illustration purposes
Suppose God inspired someone (lets call her Ann) to write, say, "This pen should not be uncapped." then in my wisdom I, Muriel, reprint that particular text (and circulate it widely) but I add "for a long time" such that the statement now reads "This pen should not be uncapped for a long time." Now my printout is all over the world and someone in Kenya, (lets call him Alphdoti) starts saying that God did not inspire Ann, what Ann wrote was wrong and such like things.

@muriel so what is holiness dependent on?

And what is your point in your example where Ann is given Book by God. God tells her xyz. But she writes uvwxyz?


Laugh
Laugh
Laugh

You see! What I have been saying all along!!! Fallacies galore!

Holiness is dependent on God. He is the one who makes something holy.

God tells Ann to write xyz and she writes xyz. I am the one who adds uvw. Yet here you are accusing her of of writing uvwxyz!! I am the one who adds uvw. Me! Me! Me! Not Ann!

1. God tells Ann to write xyz
2. Ann writes xyz
3. I, Muriel, adds uvw.
4. Leave God alone
5. Leave Ann alone she wrote the correct thing.
6. Any discrepancy in the text ask me, the culprit. I am the one who added changed.

Have you seen?

Please define "holy".

First of all have you seen? Answer me first before you ask your questions.

Today I can take the koran and take my time to make emendations here and there within it and then convince some pals of mine that that is the real deal koran. They can believe me and my printout can have worldwide circulation.

I can even type the word 'Holy' on the cover so that it reads 'Holy Koran'.

Have you seen?

@muriel, yes I have seen. I can see your point, for example you take authentic text, append your own and print it for circulation, for money. This is exactly what we are talking about.

That way, you would be concealing the truth of the scripture:

And actually the Quran talks about those inventing scriptures for a gain. Those who distort the Book with their tongues or hands:
Sometime, they read "(As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah" (Quran 3:78)

Quran says "Who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah?" (Quran 2:140).

I want you to read your KJV Mark 16:15. What does it say?
AlphDoti
#119 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:51:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
kysse wrote:
uuuuuuwi still on this?

Where's hambuglar to come and scatter ye all?

@kysse scatter? Why does talking about God stuff pierce your heart? Many ladies have fear for God...

Why would you want people who want to come to a common term be scattered?

You see our plea is "Say O people, Christians and Jews. Come to common terms as between us and you. That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that erect not, from ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.) Quran 53:64
AlphDoti
#120 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:53:07 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
kamundu wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
kamundu wrote:
@alphadoti, im still waiting for you to tell me what else has been "expunged"

@kamundu, you're still waiting for another? How many did I say I'll give you? Why do you need another? What have you done about the one I've given you?

You said several verses...have been "expunged"......

@kamundu, what Bible do you have?
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