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I Renounced Islam
Muriel
#81 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:32:35 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
symbols wrote:
@masukuma - They also thought of themselves as advanced.On the inside we're just as human as they were.We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal...

exactly - they thought themselves to be advanced but thought and the relative reality of elapsed time are two totally different things. I guess you saw njunge's age mates thread. those computers were awesome things to have 30 years ago... if that is how far we have advanced in 30 years - think about 3000 years. it's sad but we really don't have a clue of how bad things were 'back in the day'


You have misunderstood brother's post.

"Advanced" is relative. One living in 1798 thought himself more "advanced" than one who lived in 457. Yet certain things remain constant e.g. love, hate, fear, desire etc to this day.

You will not convince the 1798 guy he was just as 'advanced' as the 457 guy, that they were the same. That is why you cannot be absolute that those living before yourself were less 'advanced'.

yes advanced is relative.... we will be more advanced next week than we are today. where 'we' in this case is not 'we' as human beings but rather 'we' the society. there are aspects of our lives that are 'human' as you said "We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal..." those attributes define humanity. we are not different beings all together 'we' as a society just know more about our environment than preceding generations. this knowledge should be harnessed for the betterment of life and not pushed into a 'sanduku la sahau' because we hitherto held to certain truths. We should not hold on to 'truths' from our past yet 'we know better'. Science is not a world view and should not be a worldview. it should just be a way to come up with conclusions based on empirical testing of all available evidence.


Empirical testing relies on the senses. The senses play a role in shaping our love, hate, fear, desire, etc. Therefore, sensible 'science' of testing evidence is rather constant and not rapidly improving. If 'science' improves it could also suggest 'science' can also degenerate. If it can degenerate, then our conclusions after testing all the evidence are degenerate and you, we, despite our 'technology' are less advanced.
masukuma
#82 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:46:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
symbols wrote:
@masukuma - They also thought of themselves as advanced.On the inside we're just as human as they were.We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal...

exactly - they thought themselves to be advanced but thought and the relative reality of elapsed time are two totally different things. I guess you saw njunge's age mates thread. those computers were awesome things to have 30 years ago... if that is how far we have advanced in 30 years - think about 3000 years. it's sad but we really don't have a clue of how bad things were 'back in the day'


You have misunderstood brother's post.

"Advanced" is relative. One living in 1798 thought himself more "advanced" than one who lived in 457. Yet certain things remain constant e.g. love, hate, fear, desire etc to this day.

You will not convince the 1798 guy he was just as 'advanced' as the 457 guy, that they were the same. That is why you cannot be absolute that those living before yourself were less 'advanced'.

yes advanced is relative.... we will be more advanced next week than we are today. where 'we' in this case is not 'we' as human beings but rather 'we' the society. there are aspects of our lives that are 'human' as you said "We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal..." those attributes define humanity. we are not different beings all together 'we' as a society just know more about our environment than preceding generations. this knowledge should be harnessed for the betterment of life and not pushed into a 'sanduku la sahau' because we hitherto held to certain truths. We should not hold on to 'truths' from our past yet 'we know better'. Science is not a world view and should not be a worldview. it should just be a way to come up with conclusions based on empirical testing of all available evidence.


Empirical testing relies on the senses. The senses play a role in shaping our love, hate, fear, desire, etc. Therefore, sensible 'science' of testing evidence is rather constant and not rapidly improving. If 'science' improves it could also suggest 'science' can also degenerate. If it can degenerate, then our conclusions after testing all the evidence are degenerate and you, we, despite our 'technology' are less advanced.

as you have said - the basis of science is testing all available evidence and drawing a conclusion from the same. if new evidence comes about - test it and either uphold the existing conclusion or rubbish it by defining a new conclusion. this process goes on ad infinitum. science as a concept does not change or should not change .. the methods of collecting this evidence, the methods of testing the said evidence and the methods of drawing conclusions from the said evidence can improve based on the technology in place. Science is not technology!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
symbols
#83 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:53:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
nakujua wrote:
symbols wrote:
@masukuma - They also thought of themselves as advanced.On the inside we're just as human as they were.We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal...

even our hate, fear, desire, harm ... also advance with time, new technology, new discoveries help in shaping our emotions.


Even today we can't quantify our emotions to assess whether they are advancing or declining but they are there.
Muriel
#84 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:59:03 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
symbols wrote:
@masukuma - They also thought of themselves as advanced.On the inside we're just as human as they were.We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal...

exactly - they thought themselves to be advanced but thought and the relative reality of elapsed time are two totally different things. I guess you saw njunge's age mates thread. those computers were awesome things to have 30 years ago... if that is how far we have advanced in 30 years - think about 3000 years. it's sad but we really don't have a clue of how bad things were 'back in the day'


You have misunderstood brother's post.

"Advanced" is relative. One living in 1798 thought himself more "advanced" than one who lived in 457. Yet certain things remain constant e.g. love, hate, fear, desire etc to this day.

You will not convince the 1798 guy he was just as 'advanced' as the 457 guy, that they were the same. That is why you cannot be absolute that those living before yourself were less 'advanced'.

yes advanced is relative.... we will be more advanced next week than we are today. where 'we' in this case is not 'we' as human beings but rather 'we' the society. there are aspects of our lives that are 'human' as you said "We love,we hate,we fear,we desire,we harm,we heal..." those attributes define humanity. we are not different beings all together 'we' as a society just know more about our environment than preceding generations. this knowledge should be harnessed for the betterment of life and not pushed into a 'sanduku la sahau' because we hitherto held to certain truths. We should not hold on to 'truths' from our past yet 'we know better'. Science is not a world view and should not be a worldview. it should just be a way to come up with conclusions based on empirical testing of all available evidence.


Empirical testing relies on the senses. The senses play a role in shaping our love, hate, fear, desire, etc. Therefore, sensible 'science' of testing evidence is rather constant and not rapidly improving. If 'science' improves it could also suggest 'science' can also degenerate. If it can degenerate, then our conclusions after testing all the evidence are degenerate and you, we, despite our 'technology' are less advanced.

as you have said - the basis of science is testing all available evidence and drawing a conclusion from the same. if new evidence comes about - test it and either uphold the existing conclusion or rubbish it by defining a new conclusion. this process goes on ad infinitum. science as a concept does not change or should not change .. the methods of collecting this evidence, the methods of testing the said evidence and the methods of drawing conclusions from the said evidence can improve based on the technology in place. Science is not technology!


Methods of testing and drawing conclusion can improve but they all still rely on the senses to note the improvement or degeneration. The senses, i.e. touch, smell, taste, sight, hearing which are constant.

Hence if it can be shown that if one or all of our senses e.g. of hearing is not as sharp as it was earlier (because we damaged it with loud throbbing sound or music) then whatever test and conclusion that relied upon hearing it will be degenerate. Hence it is not wise to rubbish previously held conclusions when we get new conclusions. Actually, most if not all our senses are damaged in one way or another so we can only safely see that previous conclusions are the better conclusions. Current conclusions are flawed.

Indeed science is not technology.
symbols
#85 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:14:14 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
@masukuma - Maybe you didn't get my point although I agree with what Muriel is saying.That very drive to advance is present with us today as it was with them then.If the basis of our thinking is still the same how can we stop thinking like them?
guru267
#86 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:09:55 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
kyt wrote:
I am not a muslim or a christian but in my own view; again I could be wrong; marrying a 9 yr old is somehow twisted. 9 years is young kinda young.


So God putting the saviour of the world in the Womb of a 12 year old girl is is the example we should all follow instead!

I mean she was a whole 3 years older, I mean she was a whole double digit age of 12, A 12 year old "woman" was definitely mature enough... Wow! Applause
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
guru267
#87 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:21:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
We are understanding the prophet.


@Lolest! you are not understanding anything...

Your job is to come here and twist truth to slander the prophet!

Zayd will never be and has never been Muhammads son no matter how many conveniently twisted paragraphs you write!

I guess you have run out of lies that's why you are insisting on this one!

I have one question: As you stand there like a Pharisee judging and slandering Muhammad please tell me where it says that a PROPHET OF GOD CANNOT SIN??
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
muganda
#88 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:38:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
I empathise with @guru267, because no one can bear to see one's mother, or one's belief, being torn down. No one can bear it.

So, it is churlish:
- to claim my religion is greater than Islam
- as it is to justify death for apostasy, or honor killings
- or justify terrorism & collateral damage in expanding a country's border

So easy for us all to be hypocritical. Irrespective of belief, don't all human beings struggle with these deadly ills?
pride, greed, lust, wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth.


kollabo
#89 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:10:58 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/3/2012
Posts: 1,317
I find it strange, and perhaps @guru could explain this. Having read the Qur'an I find that the Islamic deity is distant and lacks a relational connection with his people.

The God of the bible on the other hand longs for relationship and openly reaches out to His creation.
masukuma
#90 Posted : Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:31:46 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:


Methods of testing and drawing conclusion can improve but they all still rely on the senses to note the improvement or degeneration. The senses, i.e. touch, smell, taste, sight, hearing which are constant.

Hence if it can be shown that if one or all of our senses e.g. of hearing is not as sharp as it was earlier (because we damaged it with loud throbbing sound or music) then whatever test and conclusion that relied upon hearing it will be degenerate. Hence it is not wise to rubbish previously held conclusions when we get new conclusions. Actually, most if not all our senses are damaged in one way or another so we can only safely see that previous conclusions are the better conclusions. Current conclusions are flawed.

Indeed science is not technology.

We have a body of knowledge that we have been accumulating i.e. we have stuff that we know and we know we know and in reality we actually know them. there are things that we think we know but we really don't know, there are things we know that we don't know and there are things we don't know that we don't know.


how do we know? knowing is being aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. We observe by our senses. For example - people had observed that the atom was the smallest and indivisible component of matter. in 1897 someone observed that the atom was not the smallest piece of matter someone concluded that the smallest piece of matter was actually the electron. this was based on finer instruments. in 1917 a dude got the Nobel prize for 'curing cancer' due to an observation but future observations based on finer tools and methods proved him wrong. We are slowly building the body of knowledge (known knowns that we really know). There are assumptions or incorrect approximations that result in things we think are known but are really unknown but given time we are moving stuff from the known unknowns into the things we think we know but we don't and later into the things we know that we know and we really know. Those things that we think we know but are unknown are not useless since they enable us remove the chaff from the list of possible explanations. For example – when Dalton stated that the atom was the smallest indivisible aspect of matter it removed marbles, oranges or even needles from the list of ‘smallest indivisible’ parts of matter. We have moved from where the ancients were i.e. we do not rely on senses alone to make assertions - we have technology i.e. contraptions built by us to aid us do stuff better. See better, hear better, feel better, taste better, smell better. our sight for example is used to detect 'existence' of stuff by seeing. but we have developed better ways of observing other than sight e.g. the microscopes and telescopes and all other scopes. We all agree that we know that we think we know what causes Malaria. We know that it’s not a curse or a demon or dirty water. We think it’s plasmodium and toxins released by that organism we could be wrong since our observations may improve in future HOWEVER we should not result to drawing conclusions like the people who did not have instruments of observations like these that we have.
ancients observed that the sun would appear in the east and disappear in the west. they drew conclusion that the sun went around the earth as they did not observe any movement on the part of the earth that they were standing on. with finer instruments we were able to postulate and prove that the conclusions made by the ancients were incorrect. we postulate conclusions based on information that we have at hand and we prove these conclusions later. The Higgs boson is one of these postulations that was made and a couple of years later was proved by observation to exist. Postulation of conclusions should be based on what information we have now not what was available millennia ago.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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