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Executive House Estate Demolition
a4architect.com
#41 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:40:08 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma, let me make the questions easier.
1. in the 90s, did the commisioner of lands/president have power to alienate govt lands?
2. if the commissioner of lands says @alma is the land owner of title xyz previously belonging to govt, was there another way a buyer would verify ownership? as in was there a higher authority than commissioner of lands in adjudicating land ownership in the 90s?

The concept is that all land in kenya belongs to the govt which then allows leases ministries, parastatals and individuals for use eg office, roads, houses, schools etc with the ministry of lands regulating/controling the end usage and ownership .
More detailed laws/regulations/bodies eg national land commission should come in and guide on this using international best practice on how govt should appropriate its lands to the public fairly.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#42 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:50:26 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
a4architect.com wrote:
@alma, let me make the questions easier.
1. in the 90s, did the commisioner of lands/president have power to alienate govt lands?
2. if the commissioner of lands says @alma is the land owner of title xyz previously belonging to govt, was there another way a buyer would verify ownership? as in was there a higher authority than commissioner of lands in adjudicating land ownership in the 90s?


@a4 please go read the Ndungu report. If I tell you you will start another long story.

It was very categorical that what the commissioner of lands did was illegal.

You cannot usurp land for personal use. You acquire land for gov't for the good of the nation.

So for whatever reason, the best land report that was ever created in this country, recommended that the fellows involved in South B be prosecuted.

This report was thrown in the dustbin and Kenyans will suffer for it.

Since I'm not a brilliant legal mind like you, I will have to accept that those guys knew what they were talking about.

You cannot cloak personal greed in the beautiful dress of compulsory acquisition of land for the good of Kenya.

Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
a4architect.com
#43 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:04:10 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma, can you share a link to the ndungu report?

both of us are not lawyers so lets try to rationalise this thing the best way we can.

The custodian of the land registry at that time, the commisioner of lands/president had power to alienate govt land.

All Nairobi land in the 1890S was alienated by the colonial govt and appropriated to britons/govt ministries around the 1920s.

Some ministries were allocated too much land which was further allocated to the public by the kenyatta and moi govt. This balance of land allocation continued between ministries and the public, with govt using compulsory acquisition methods for roads and other infrastructure when it wanted land from the public.

What we are witnessing is the same balance process of back and forth of land between govt and public. The regulator of all govt and personal land is the ministry of lands. Ministry of lands have the power to allocate or acquire land to and from the public.
What we need are more regulations to enable this allocation to be fair and transparent to all.

Lets take Karen as an example. Colonial govt allocated the land to Karen Blixen in the early 1900s and remained with some land i the form of Ngong forest,road reserves, schools etc which subsequent govts appropriated further.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#44 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:13:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
No problem a4 but on matters land law, no lawyer can be me.


Alienation of Public Land and the Power to do So

Under the law, it is only the President who has the right to allocate unalienated government lands, although he can delegate limited powers to the Commissioner of Lands. Yet even the President cannot exercise his powers without paying regard to the public interest.


Abuse of presidential discretion in apportioning land .Successive Commissioners of Lands, acting in excess of the legal power vested in that office, had made direct grants of unallocated land to individuals and companies without written authority of the President.



Use of forged letters and documents

The Commission found that forged letters and documents
were used to illegally allocate land. Further, land that had
been acquired compulsorily for public use was then illegally
allocated through forged letters and documents. Those
allocated such land would later sell it to third parties, some
of whom developed it.


Recommendations on illegal allocation of urban lands
The Commission recommended that:
• Where public utility land had been allocated,
such allocation should be nullified and the land
repossessed and restored to the public use for which it had been reserved.
• Where land set aside to serve as road reserves had been illegally allocated, such land should be repossessed and restored to public use even if the land had since been developed. Developments on such lands should therefore be demolished without exception.

On the Issue of having a Title Deed after land was acquired illegally

The Commission observed a number of factors that render a land title illegal. One of these is when a title is issued for a piece of land which is not legally available for allocation.



That report was very clear.

So if there is any Architect, Conveyancing Lawyer, Property Valuer who pretends they don't know what it is talking about, then that person is professinally negligent.

And should be sued with abandon.

Links to Ndungu Report

http://www.africog.org/reports/mission_impossible_ndungu_report.pdf

Short form of Ndungu Report

Other Summary of Report
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
a4architect.com
#45 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:20:52 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma, thx forthe ndungu report link.

in the case of the kevivapi land, i believe the commissioner of lands and president allocated the land to the public as per within the laws applicable by then? Or did the commisisoner of lands/ president later on deny allocating the said lands?
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#46 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:22:08 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Go to page 24 of the first link

Those were the recommendations of the Ndungu commission on what is affecting the guys in South B.

Unfortunately for them as it stands that report has not been implemented. So they stand to lose everything and I mean everything.

So its a catch 22 situation.

If the report is implemented, they stand to lose some of their money as they will be required to pay the current market rates of the undeveloped land.

If it is not implemented, they have to pray that Sonko is still Senator and Uhuru is still president.

Moral of the story, Buy land in Kenya wisely. If ndungu report is not implemented you may be buying fake land. If it is implemented, you may be forced to pay more than what you paid for it.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
alma
#47 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:23:23 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
a4architect.com wrote:
@alma, thx forthe ndungu report link.

in the case of the kevivapi land, i believe the commissioner of lands and president allocated the land to the public as per within the laws applicable by then? Or did the commisisoner of lands/ president later on deny allocating the said lands?


kevavapi land was just stolen. The person of the Commissioner of Lands allocating himself land then reselling it at a profit is not "the public good".
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
a4architect.com
#48 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:31:34 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma, i have checked it. I believe if Ndungu did his report in the era of the internet/google search, he would have discovered how other countries resolve such and would have advised differently. Land is such an important resource to be left for a commission to decide on,.It should be an issue of parliamentary debates,bills,which turn into law and various research bodies such as the national land commission.

Govt cant just demolish houses coz lawyer Paul Ndungu and @alma recommends it. This should be a matter of parliamentary debate whereby all dissenting opinions such as mine are heard then the bets decision takes over.

If kevivapi residents can prove that president/lands commissioner approved the appropriation, then they are home and dry. If the appropriations were done by persons other than president and lands commissioner, then there is some chance of loosing the case.

i believe the buyers did searches at the land registry and were satisfied . Citizens simply have no other way to ascertain land ownership other than official land search at the registry. If this is altered, then citizens cant be blamed for buying the said lands.

if the kevivapi residents swarmed on govt land and allocated themselves like they do on slums, then demolition is a remedy. If commissioner of lands appropriated the land from govt to private hands, then the residents are not to blame since at the time , commissioner of lands was the law in matters land and the custodian of the registry.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#49 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:40:05 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
a4 architect, the law is not on your side.

The case of Malcolm Bell v Daniel Toroitich Arap Moi &amp; another is not on the side of land grabbers.

Note also that NSSF itself has sued masters of fraudulent allocation of land

Ankhan Holding ltd V National Social Security Fund, Ankhan Holding sold some land that had been illegally allocated from Ngong Road Forest to National Social Security Fund ( NSSF). It was sued for fraud by NSSF for having sold the land which was an integral part of the forest where no residential or other development could be undertaken or entertained.

You see my friend. There is already case law based on the Ndungu report that home owners can depend on to sue the hell out of these thieves.

I'm still shocked that you are supporting land grabbers and petty thieves.


This is the main reason why Ngilu is always shouting about the National Lands Commission. They don't want it implemented.

And I quote

Quote:
With the enactment of the new constitution and Land laws, the public now have a surety that land meant for public will not fall victims of illegal allocation. An independent body, the National Land Commission is vested with powers to manage and allocate public land openly. Never again shall the president or any public officer use land as a token to reward loyalists.



The Ngungu Report was during Kibakis tenure. If by that time you did not have internet and google, then I can understand why you're so slow to understand that we can't let land grabbers rule this country.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
a4architect.com
#50 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:42:05 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
alma wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
@alma, thx forthe ndungu report link.

in the case of the kevivapi land, i believe the commissioner of lands and president allocated the land to the public as per within the laws applicable by then? Or did the commisisoner of lands/ president later on deny allocating the said lands?


kevavapi land was just stolen. The person of the Commissioner of Lands allocating himself land then reselling it at a profit is not "the public good".


@alma, how else was the commissioner of lands supposed to appropriate the land? If there were no intricate laws and the laws at that time gave him the powers/leeway to do as he wished, then we can say land reforms to improve this is what is needed since assuming all commissioners of land are angels surely got the country where it is now.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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