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Mtu Biz
#321 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 2:59:24 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
Mtu Biz wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:

what is your version or the islamic teaching on revenge...
Is revenge allowed? If it is how is it executed?


"Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." {Quran 2:190]

"Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression." [Quran 2:193]

"To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid; "
[Quran 22:39]

the repayment for an injury is an injury equal therto in degree: but if a person forgives and makes reconcilation, his reward is due from God: for God loves not those who do wrong.
[Quran 42:40]


Ah..ok.

So @ guru of the 4 quotations from the Koran above which one(s) does makaburi use to back his view that what happened in westgate is justified because KDF is in Somalia.. ?

Is his view backed by any of the above verses/quotations?

Educate me.


@Alphadoti feel free to chip in. Make it brief if you may.


Sola Scriptura


AlphDoti
#322 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 3:29:28 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Mtu Biz wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:

what is your version or the islamic teaching on revenge...
Is revenge allowed? If it is how is it executed?

"Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." {Quran 2:190]

"Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression." [Quran 2:193]

"To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid; "
[Quran 22:39]

the repayment for an injury is an injury equal therto in degree: but if a person forgives and makes reconcilation, his reward is due from God: for God loves not those who do wrong.
[Quran 42:40]

Ah..ok.

So @ guru of the 4 quotations from the Koran above which one(s) does makaburi use to back his view that what happened in westgate is justified because KDF is in Somalia.. ?

Is his view backed by any of the above verses/quotations?

Educate me.

@Alphadoti feel free to chip in. Make it brief if you may.

Surely, I'll. Thank you.
AlphDoti
#323 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 5:15:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
AlphDoti wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
@Alphadoti feel free to chip in. Make it brief if you may.

Surely, I'll. Thank you.

First, I must say Islam is a tolerant religion. It has laid down rules for engagement, there are rules that govern jihad for the sake of righteousness (you can see my reponse about jihad here if you I can). Rules are to protect the rights of others and to protect innocent lives. However, whenever the people try to take advantage of these rules and harm the Muslims, these rules are suspended. So if the people try to take advantage of Muslims by using these restrictions against them, then the Muslims are allowed to put those rules aside.

To sum it up, Islam will not allow its followers to be used against the same rules that govern how to fight.

So sometimes you see situations where war takes place where rules are not followed because the enemy is planning a siege. So they deserve the punishment because of their betrayal. And because of their plotting to assassinate the innocent Muslims. So the rules of jihad are not used.
Mtu Biz
#324 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 5:42:32 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
AlphDoti wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
@Alphadoti feel free to chip in. Make it brief if you may.

Surely, I'll. Thank you.

First, I must say Islam is a tolerant religion. It has laid down rules for engagement, there are rules that govern jihad for the sake of righteousness (you can see my reponse about jihad here if you I can). Rules are to protect the rights of others and to protect innocent lives. However, whenever the people try to take advantage of these rules and harm the Muslims, these rules are suspended. So if the people try to take advantage of Muslims by using these restrictions against them, then the Muslims are allowed to put those rules aside.

To sum it up, Islam will not allow its followers to be used against the same rules that govern how to fight.

So sometimes you see situations where war takes place where rules are not followed because the enemy is planning a siege. So they deserve the punishment because of their betrayal. And because of their plotting to assassinate the innocent Muslims. So the rules of jihad are not used.


Ok..

Let me walk this through in my mind...

Alphadoti and Mtubiz and engaged in a fight.. according to the rules.. there should be no use of weapons..hand to hand combat only... mtu biz has a hidden knife he has brought to the fight and tries to use it on alphadoti... alphadoti cries foul..the rules are officially suspended.. alphadoti is handed a panga.. the fight continues..

Is the above accurate?

So according to Islam when GB attacked Iraq and children and unarmed people were killed (rules of engagement breached?)
The rules of engagement were suspended.. revenge consistent with the breach i.e killing children and unarmed people on the aggressors side is justifiable..

I'm i right so far ?


Sola Scriptura


AlphDoti
#325 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 7:04:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Mtu Biz wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
@Alphadoti feel free to chip in. Make it brief if you may.

Surely, I'll. Thank you.

First, I must say Islam is a tolerant religion. It has laid down rules for engagement, there are rules that govern jihad for the sake of righteousness (you can see my reponse about jihad here if you I can). Rules are to protect the rights of others and to protect innocent lives. However, whenever the people try to take advantage of these rules and harm the Muslims, these rules are suspended. So if the people try to take advantage of Muslims by using these restrictions against them, then the Muslims are allowed to put those rules aside.

To sum it up, Islam will not allow its followers to be used against the same rules that govern how to fight.

So sometimes you see situations where war takes place where rules are not followed because the enemy is planning a siege. So they deserve the punishment because of their betrayal. And because of their plotting to assassinate the innocent Muslims. So the rules of jihad are not used.

Ok..

Let me walk this through in my mind...

Alphadoti and Mtubiz and engaged in a fight.. according to the rules.. there should be no use of weapons..hand to hand combat only... mtu biz has a hidden knife he has brought to the fight and tries to use it on alphadoti... alphadoti cries foul..the rules are officially suspended.. alphadoti is handed a panga.. the fight continues..

Is the above accurate?

So according to Islam when GB attacked Iraq and children and unarmed people were killed (rules of engagement breached?)
The rules of engagement were suspended.. revenge consistent with the breach i.e killing children and unarmed people on the aggressors side is justifiable..

I'm i right so far ?

@Mtu Biz, you are right in the former, but you are wrong in the later. You missed about the children and women. The Quran states limit, "fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

When the level of persecution reaches its break point, permission is granted for a person to defend themselves. This applies to the Muslims too. It is well known concept of just war theory, which is emphasized in Islam.

This principle is re-echoed by many international peace keeping missions. United Nations has stated the same terming it as just war theorists using international lawyers who have argued that war is sometimes necessary. They say that the hope for peace lies in finding conventional limits to war.

So similarly, God has asked Muslims to fight back as a last resort. This applies to the time when the those fighting Muslims have violated the treaties they signed.

"Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty [to God]" (Quran 8:56).

"To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- [They are] those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- [for no cause] except that they say, “our Lord is Allah." (Quran 22:39).
guru267
#326 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 9:14:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
My God tells us to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies et al He doesn't need us to 'protect' Him, He's great all by Himself.


Oh yeah... Is your God not the God of David (as) or the God of Samson, or the God of Moses (as) or the God of Joshua??

Did any of these servants turn their cheek??

Slaughtering others in the name of God did not begin with Muhammad (saw)!

Even the same Jesus (as) you quote will come back and wield a sword to slaughter the Anti Christ... I don't see any turning of the cheek or loving enemies there! Liar




Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
Kratos
#327 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 9:18:23 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
DEL.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
guru267
#328 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 9:20:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
The Kenyan constitution allows for self defence... That said, I still invite all those threatening the Masjid with pigs and carcasses!

We will provide a demonstration/guide on how to defend a Holy place!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
Kratos
#329 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 9:20:51 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
guru267 wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
My God tells us to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies et al He doesn't need us to 'protect' Him, He's great all by Himself.


Oh yeah... Is your God not the God of David (as) or the God of Samson, or the God of Moses (as) or the God of Joshua??

Did any of these servants turn their cheek??

Slaughtering others in the name of God did not begin with Muhammad (saw)!

Even the same Jesus (as) you quote will come back and wield a sword to slaughter the Anti Christ... I don't see any turning of the cheek or loving enemies there! Liar




Which bible is that?

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
Kratos
#330 Posted : Friday, March 28, 2014 9:23:45 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
guru267 wrote:
The Kenyan constitution allows for self defence... That said, I still invite all those threatening the Masjid with pigs and carcasses!

We will provide a demonstration/guide on how to defend a Holy place!


By attacking more innocent children?

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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