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Defeating death
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Mtu Biz
#71 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:46:48 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
tycho wrote:

@Mtu biz, for a moment I thought your proposed 'truce' would be accompanied by some serious thought from you, but apparently, you're incapable of that. You seem to have been diverted by @kysse's posts, which I can guarantee you are straws.

My response to you is based on three things which I dare you to challenge with your 'worldly'/'earthly' wisdom.

1. A question can't be asked of what is absolutely known. Asking me if there's a question whose details are all known and plain to see is like asking me, if there's a cow with eight legs. You probably don't see anything wrong with your question of false premises though.

2. It slipped your mind that my answer to your question about the cup challenged your 'yes' or 'no' categories by saying that they were equivalent. And indeed I can show that they are not just equivalent but that my answer/reply accords to the true premises of a question - contention, difference in perception, doubt.

3. By not giving a 'yes' or 'no' answer to a false question and by showing you of 'grey' areas doesn't mean that all questions are answered thus.

It's sad, but you're plainly lazy in thought.


Ahh! Brother Tycho please don't give up on me that easily...and thank you Muriel, a true voice of reason you are.
Tycho you are right by the way in your response to the cup question that a question when all that can be known about a thing is plain to see is not a question in fact.. and you are right about my lazy thinking...(im not completely incapable of thought though smile )
You see sir, in all my adult life ..which is going to 20 years now.. i have had to inter prate everything through these 'what you see is what is' goggles..
Then you come along and question everything and then do not provide answers... do you have answers or just questions my brother?
Then you grab our virtual hands and take us down alice in wonderland's rabbit hole..

Tycho i ask that as i wrestle with your high philosophy you also tolerate the plain maybe pedestrian questions and views i will throw along the way.


In my book.. the truce still stands.

Dont be overly sensitive my brother.. delete the tone of my previous post from your brain, that was in jest.

Now.. back to death on the next post.


Sola Scriptura
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Mtu Biz
#72 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:53:06 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
tycho wrote:
Muriel, is the statement that there are absolutes, logical?

I believe it's not. Why? It can't be negated without self contradiction. 'There are no absolutes' is equivalent to 'there are absolutes'. Hence both of these statements are logically useless but useful in a political and ideal sense.

Talk about absolutes is a refusal to talk and coexist due to selfish political interest.


hmmm..

I think this refusal to talk is by design.. absolutes cannot and probably should not be logical.
The fact that absolutes are not up for discussion on their absoluteness shields us from a discussion paralysis..helps us to get stuff done.

Ama?
Sola Scriptura
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symbols
#73 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 3:54:24 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
Muriel wrote:
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
Muriel, is the statement that there are absolutes, logical?

I believe it's not. Why? It can't be negated without self contradiction. 'There are no absolutes' is equivalent to 'there are absolutes'. Hence both of these statements are logically useless but useful in a political and ideal sense.

Talk about absolutes is a refusal to talk and coexist due to selfish political interest.


If both statements are useless,then what is your point?



Like ying and yang.

Or

Absolute goodness produces or has (absolute) evil. And vice versa. Hence there is no 'absolute' all is relative. A continuum. A ring. A circle.

The point is very specific and surgically targeted. One target and one target only.

'Ideal' sense already implies an absolute. Ideal. Unchangeable. Immutable. Ultimate. Perfection. Hence to me 'absolutes' is logical.


"All is relative" sounds like an absolute to refute absolutes.Even if it isn't,there are no 'points' just perspective.It defeats itself e.g. coexistence would simply be another perspective.Same case with selfishness.
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Muriel
#74 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:06:19 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
symbols wrote:
Muriel wrote:
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
Muriel, is the statement that there are absolutes, logical?

I believe it's not. Why? It can't be negated without self contradiction. 'There are no absolutes' is equivalent to 'there are absolutes'. Hence both of these statements are logically useless but useful in a political and ideal sense.

Talk about absolutes is a refusal to talk and coexist due to selfish political interest.


If both statements are useless,then what is your point?



Like ying and yang.

Or

Absolute goodness produces or has (absolute) evil. And vice versa. Hence there is no 'absolute' all is relative. A continuum. A ring. A circle.

The point is very specific and surgically targeted. One target and one target only.

'Ideal' sense already implies an absolute. Ideal. Unchangeable. Immutable. Ultimate. Perfection. Hence to me 'absolutes' is logical.


"All is relative" sounds like an absolute to refute absolutes.Even if it isn't,there are no 'points' just perspective.It defeats itself e.g. coexistence would simply be another perspective.Same case with selfishness.


Yes. Absolutely. An absolute to refute other absolutes.

So, as Mtu Biz states, absolutes cannot and probably should not be logical.

Otherwise, 'all is relative' should also be relative. Hence all cannot be relative so some should be absolute.
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Mtu Biz
#75 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:51:56 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
A different thought... maybe not so different.

Whatsoever IS, is definitely absolute.

This is the only way to knowledge.. from known to unknown.. otherwise if we say we do not know then there is no knowledge....

Death.

Sad






Sola Scriptura
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danas10
#76 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:16:52 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 10/8/2010
Posts: 763
Location: Intersection
Mtu Biz wrote:
A different thought... maybe not so different.

Whatsoever IS, is definitely absolute.

This is the only way to knowledge.. from known to unknown.. otherwise if we say we do not know then there is no knowledge....

Death.

Sad



...now I can't resist this anymore as much as I hate arguments...

Knowledge is highly dependent on one's belief system and everyone can justify their beliefs. Hence I think what "IS" is an individuals belief that it is and that's his knowledge. Maybe when majority believe that whatever it is is, it becomes true knowledge, today, tomorrow it may become false knowledge when someone else alters the system. ...If there is an end, then we are all dead. Life would be meaningless Sad
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symbols
#77 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:47:01 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552


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Muriel
#78 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:35:41 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
I want to disagree with Danas position that knowledge is subjective. Not knowing a fact does not change or negate that fact. It still remains as fact. For example, the fallacy of 'no absolutes' remains whether my matatu driver knows it or not.

Opinion, on the other hand, is subjective and fluid. Knowledge is objective and constant.

Opinion about knowledge changes with advance. Absolute is absolute. From known to unknown. Not knowing the known is indeed knowing nothing. Death. Life comes with knowing.
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danas10
#79 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:17:48 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 10/8/2010
Posts: 763
Location: Intersection
Muriel wrote:
I want to disagree with Danas position that knowledge is subjective. Not knowing a fact does not change or negate that fact. It still remains as fact. For example, the fallacy of 'no absolutes' remains whether my matatu driver knows it or not.

Opinion, on the other hand, is subjective and fluid. Knowledge is objective and constant.

Opinion about knowledge changes with advance. Absolute is absolute. From known to unknown. Not knowing the known is indeed knowing nothing. Death. Life comes with knowing.


@Muriel, am basing my reasoning on the understanding that there is a difference between facts and knowledge. Facts are absolutes and not all facts constitute knowledge. E.g. the fact that you said you are a man does not constitute my knowledge that you are a "man" smile

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tycho
#80 Posted : Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:48:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
Who can escape life?


You remind me of a haiku.

What are the clouds
but an excuse for the sky?
What is death,
but an escape from life?

P.s. @quicksand, am coming.


Death is something you encounter in life but who has escaped life?


Symbols, 'who' implies 'life'. So you're asking if life can escape from itself. It's not a question that you're asking.

But what is it?
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